The Twilight Saga

Do you think that Jacob was drawn to Bella because of Renesmee?

I believe so.Looking at it from a infautuation angle I think that he was just was in love with the egg inside of Bella but thought it was Bella who he loved?
We also don't know how strong imprinting really is so. I'm thinking in eclipse when bella had a vision could it have been Renesmee doing that she does have the power to show or picture what she thinks and wants.I wonder if the Renesmee was actually Jacob's Bella?

But this is my belief or opinion so ill respect what you say but probably will not agree with it.

Tags: Jacob, Jake, Meyer, Nessie, Rensmee, Stephanie, Wolf

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Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not want what belongs to others. It does not brag. It is not proud. It is not rude. It does not look out for its own interests. It does not easily become angry. It does not keep track of other people’s wrongs.

Love is not happy with evil. But it is full of joy when truth is spoken. It always protects. It always trusts. It always hopes. It never gives up.
Love never fails.

For me, it makes sense to first define what the terms mean so that how I applied them is more likely to be understood.
My understanding of love being patient is that it doesn't reveal annoyances or return anger or has a quick temper. The character of the one they are romantically involved with is completely accepted. 

While there are many to choose from for new moon and eclipse, I will try to find a representation rather than list them all.
"Thank you," Edward said, and his voice throbbed with the depth of his sincerity. "I will never be able to tell you how grateful I am. I will owe you for the rest of my…existence."
Jacob stared at him blankly, his shudders stilled by surprise. He exchanged a quick glance with me, but my face was just as mystified.
"For keeping Bella alive," Edward clarified, his voice rough and fervent. "When I…didn't."
"Edward—," I started to say, but he held one hand up, his eyes on Jacob.
Understanding washed over Jacob's face before the hard mask returned. "I didn't do it for your benefit."
"I know. But that doesn't erase the gratitude I feel. I thought you should know. If there's ever anything in my power to do for you…"
Jacob raised one black brow.
"Whose, then?" Jacob growled.
Edward looked down at me. "Hers. I'm a quick learner, Jacob Black, and I don't make the same mistake twice. I'm here until she orders me away."
I was immersed momentarily in his golden gaze. It wasn't hard to understand what I'd missed in the conversation. The only thing that Jacob would want from Edward would be his absence.
"Never," I whispered, still locked in Edward's eyes.
Jacob made a gagging sound.
I unwillingly broke free from Edward's gaze to frown at Jacob. "Was there something else you needed, Jacob? You wanted me in trouble—mission Accomplished. Charlie might just send me to military school. But that won't keep me away from Edward. There's nothing that can do that. What more do you want?"
My answer sent Jacob into near convulsions. He pressed his fists hard against his temples, closing his eyes tight and curling in on himself as he tried to control the spasms.
His face turned sallow green under the russet skin.
"Jake?

But Jacob was already somewhat himself again; only his arms were shaking now. He scowled at Edward with pure hate. "Ugh. I would never hurt her."

Jacob's furious expression faltered. "I am sorry about that," he muttered. "I had to do what I could—I had to try…"
"Thanks." The tremor in my voice
"You promised," I reminded him desperately. "Still friends, right?"
Jacob shook his head slowly, and the lump in my throat nearly strangled me.
"You know how hard I've tried to keep that promise, but… I can't see how to keep trying.
Not now…" He struggled to keep his hard mask in place, but it wavered, and then disappeared. "Miss you," he mouthed. One of his hands reached toward me, his fingers outstretched, like he wished they were long enough to cross the distance between us.

Now if one applied what I just said was my definition of patience to this exchange. You can easily see that while Edward accepts what Bella wants from him, Jacob does not. He has his own agenda and without it, he is saying he does not want to continue to be friends. That is not the way patience behaves.

Bella was a revelation for Jacob. She was fresh, new and different from the other girls he knew and a best friend to start. I wonder how many people have married their best friend? This was love for them, the only love that seemed available. Sometimes this kind of pairing becomes a wonderful love story: When Harry Met Sally. Sometimes it ends unhappily for one of them when he or she meets someone who lifts and changes them as in Bella and Edward's story. Jacob fought this relationship from the beginning but learned as the story progressed a better kind of loving expression from the Christ-like Seth and the fully mature Edward.

What is described as imprinting seems to be an example of a spiritual experience.. when everything becomes new and there is an experience that changes their understanding of love. From what I read of imprinting it seemed pretty powerful and inescapable.

These are my opinions/beliefs.

I accept all that you said as being how you see it, Barbara.  That said, may I ask you a few questions about what I said?

I said:

For me, it makes sense to first define what the terms mean so that how I applied them is more likely to be understood.
My understanding of love being patient is that it doesn't reveal annoyances or return anger or has a quick temper. The character of the one they are romantically involved with is completely accepted. 

Do you agree of disagree with that definition?

Also did new moon/eclipse show you any moments of Jacob or Edward showing (as in actions and behaviors or comments with actions and behaviors to support them written in the story) "annoyances", "returning anger", "being quick tempered" toward Bella?  And then Bella toward either of either of them?

I am not asking you this because I am refuting you but to learn if your interpretation was different than mine for what I thought I read in the story in new moon and eclipse.

Jacob, before he imprinted, was impatient. He felt an immature love for Bella, but it was what he understood as love. It wasn't until he had his spiritual experience of imprinting did he understand the love Edward had for Bella and realized that he, himself had been given that for Renesmee, perhaps as an answer to his intense yearning. What you describe as patient love is what Jacob had after he imprinted.

Only Christ, to my understanding was able to avoid human foibles. We have the Christ-like character of Seth to demonstrate love in Eclipse

New Moon and Eclipse took place before Jacob' s imprinting so there are moments when Jacob showed lots of annoyance. Edward, had his moments, too, but then he had his 'human slip' moments that made the story more readable. Bella also.  I'm not going to cite examples.

Thank you for the response Barbara.  You wrote concerning Jacob's patience:

Jacob, before he imprinted, was impatient.

On that much we do agree.

Barbara, I am more than willing to explain my views versus what you said only if you would like me to do that.  Otherwise, I have no need to write more because again you are writing your views which while we differ, I totally accept as yours.

 

Pinkie, I am not at a point in time where I want to invest energy and patience to give you what you're asking for, to argue this is the way you enjoy. You had said in a previous email that I was looking for concrete examples from you so that I could refute them. Isn't that what you are asking for from me?

Pinkie, I am not at a point in time where I want to invest energy and patience to give you what you're asking for, to argue this is the way you enjoy.

HUH?  Barbara, I asked you did you want me to respond.  That is a yes or no and NOT a request for you to invest energy or patience you do not wish to apply!  

As for argument?  How is it that I am said to be looking for an argument when I did not confront you but you confronted me?  This began with you responding to me remember?  And no.  I do not enjoy arguments.  I hate them.  What I enjoy is discussions where I meet up with people with their own voices and show me the same respect I show them.  We do not need to agree but we must at least need to be able to read what each other says with understanding of what is being said.  We must need to want to make sure we do not misunderstand and use that to offend someone, but to suggest that differences in and of themselves means an argument is not something I care for or enjoy or practice.  I am both shocked and disappointed that is what you think of me.  I am dumbfounded as to why.   I am not of that impression of you but I really do not know what more to say to put you at ease.  I am also SO VERY SORRY you feel that way. 

You had said in a previous email that I was looking for concrete examples from you so that I could refute them.

Yes, that is what I felt when you kept asking for examples of books I felt represented love. Then when I shared them, you found reasons to say they did not fill your criteria.  Yes, that did feel like you wanted to refute me.  I said Harry Potter and you said it was the wrong genre and not a fair comparison.  I said that Holy Bible and you said these were not realistic ideals for man. Later you add Seth is the only one you saw reflecting Christ likeness.  So yes, it read like refuting.  For it to feel differently, I would have needed to read from you after reading my answer of Harry Potter and The Holy Bible would be more in line with your saying okay or thanks.    

Isn't that what you are asking for from me?

NO!  I did ask you if you had examples and you answered me saying that you did not want to give any.   Now had I asked you for examples after that response, then I would say to you that you are right.  However, I did not say that.  Instead I asked you IF you wanted me to respond more or not.  That was a Yes or No questions to which you could have chosen either and that would have ended the subject.  Instead you seemed to either not understand what I asked or went back to what was already accepted by me to make this complaint.

I do not understand where we are finding difficulties in understanding one another, but I meant it when I said I am not going to argue twilight with ANY one anymore.  I do not feel what I am writing now is an argument to you or anyone but simply how I READ the story and HOW I CAME to my views.  It is MY explanations so I will let them stand.  That said, unless you engage me with more interests in what I say AND it seems an innocuous response toward me with my feeling the ability of responding will be receive in kind/amicable, then I will not respond to whatever you say anymore on this subject, okay?  I do not want to hurt your feelings or be hurt due to misunderstandings.  BUT I WILL WRITE WHAT I WANT TO SAY ABOUT THE TWILIGHT SAGA.

And if this does not clear it up that you truly are misreading me, then I accept I do not have the vocabulary to put your mind at ease that I am not trying to argue with you/anyone.

Pinkie, you said: BUT I WILL WRITE WHAT I WANT TO SAY ABOUT THE TWILIGHT SAGA.

Please write what you want to say about The Twilight Saga, Pinkie. Please say everything that you want to say. It is your right to do so. Even if people argue it doesn't mean anything other than they don't agree.

You remember that I've encouraged you to stay and say what you want to say?

I am willing to back away and declare us at an impasse. No harm. No foul.

Pinkie, you said: BUT I WILL WRITE WHAT I WANT TO SAY ABOUT THE TWILIGHT SAGA.

I did say that starting with the FIRST post I wrote where I address NO ONE.

Please write what you want to say about The Twilight Saga, Pinkie.  Please say everything that you want to say.

I will, as that was always the plan.

It is your right to do so. 

Yes, it is.

Even if people argue it doesn't mean anything other than they don't agree.

I beg to differ:

It can also mean they do not like what you say.  

It can also mean they do not like that you would speak of the character in a way they do not like.

It can also mean you said something they can not refute and the desire to one up you is made not achievable.

It can mean they are frustrated that they do not know the story as well as they thought.

It can mean the think of feel I am arrogant and hope to prove me so.

It can mean they do not like me for whatever reason they have created in their minds about who I am.

It can mean they enjoy arguing.

These are just a few other choices with more unnamed still.  But the point is that it can mean far more than they don't agree.

You remember that I've encouraged you to stay and say what you want to say?

Yes, I do.  Thank you.

I am willing to back away and declare us at an impasse.

You lost me here.  

No harm. No foul.

I am lost again.  I have no idea of what I said that was harmful or foul to you/anyone.  However, as I already said, I am willing to accept you misread me and my intentions but I can so readily leave this alone.  

Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not want what belongs to others. It does not brag. It is not proud. It is not rude. It does not look out for its own interests. It does not easily become angry. It does not keep track of other people’s wrongs.  

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Now I will discuss Love is kind.

My definition of kindness would be to say that you are trying to be constructive as much as possible in the relationship.  You are actively creative in attempts to meet the needs of the one you love.  You see their needs and you search for methods to improve or contribute to their lives in that way.

In new moon, I saw this from Bella, Edward and Jacob toward each other (sans one Jacob toward Edward) Again, I will give just one example each form new moon.

Jacob initially saw that Bella was very unhappy and he allowed her to do whatever she wanted in order to feel good about herself.  She said lets fix bikes?  He said...cool.  She said lets spend my school funds...he said cool.  She said let's hike...he said cool.  All of these are before his transformation so they had nothing to do with the pack duties that will eventually be his focus.  

Jacob showed no kindness to Edward that I can recall.

Bella showed this best when Jacob went missing and she thought he was in a gang.  She camped out and took them all on for the sake of the love she had for Jake.  When he later shows at her home through her window to explain?  She tells him she will run away with him so he could be free.  Those are sincere signs of kindness toward Jacob.

Bella shows kindness toward Edward when she goes to Italy in the very innovative attempt to save him.  However she showed him a greater kindness when she decided that despite what she wanted, she would set him free by saying that he had to stop feeling obligated to save her.  In her mind, he did not love her and so this would cause him to leave.  Knowing it would end their time together...she did it!  She felt this would improve his life and so she wanted to set him free no matter the personal cost to her of losing him yet again.  (same thing he did when he left her btw)

Edward showed Bella kindness when he left her.   As much as he loved her, in that moment of making the decision to leave her, he believed that his love was going to cause her death.  She had already suffered running and hiding and excruciating pain along with weeks of recovery and broken bones and permanently suffering a vampire's bite thanks to her association with him causing her to be the prey of a stranger...James.  This time is was his own brother who after a single prick of a finger fought him because he wanted to eat her!  Then by his own hands he hurts her even more setting in motion the rest of his family  having to fight their desire of wanting to get at her to drink her blood.  What a powerful moment to my mind that you would know how much you love her that you would leave the one you want because you think they are better off without you!  Edwards kind act was to let her go to be alive without the fears that are and will always be present as long as she is human!  He will leave her instead of change her so she can both live and keep assurance of not losing her soul.

Edward showed Jacob a kindness when he did not react to his cruelty toward Bella by causing her trouble with her father over the bikes.  Edward had it within his power to injure Jacob as from what all we learned in the story tells us that one wolf is not a match for a vampire and when you add Edward's gift of reading minds, Jacob's only reason for being safe in his awful actions was Edward's concern for Bella's feelings.  Thus a kindness was given to Jacob.  He also showed an even greater one in my view when Edward thanked Jacob for protecting Bella in his absence!  As I said, kindness is when we look for ways to be constructive and to tell someone you know hates you that you appreciate them?  I find that a TREMENDOUS act of kindness.  

Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not want what belongs to others. It does not brag. It is not proud. It is not rude. It does not look out for its own interests. It does not easily become angry. It does not keep track of other people’s wrongs. 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

It does not want what belongs to others.

I feel this one is self explanatory, but I will add that it means you are not selfish.  

In new moon, Jacob was a friend to Bella out of his attraction to her.  There is absolutely nothing wrong in that. However, once Bella said she was not at the place of wanting what he wanted (stated in the theatre) all he does thereafter has nothing to do with Bella and everything to do with his decision DESPITE of Bella.  All that I read from that point on in the story is about Jacob meeting Jacob's interests.  In new moon, Sam says stay away from Bella.....he doesn't listen.  He does not want her to be with Alice because she is HIS enemy.  He does not speak to her after she returns from Italy because she is now with Edward.  He takes her bikes to her dad because he wants her away from Edward.  He says he is ending their friendship because she is friend with the Cullen's.  All of these are not in Bella's interests or desires but Jacob's.  Yes we know his reasons but we also know his reasons are NOT valid!  For Jacob, the only one capable of self control is HIM!  He can control not turning into a wolf so she can be with him even though we read how Sam hurt his love by turning unexpectedly.  This does not matter to Jake because he is self assured.  However, he does not accept that as possible beyond himself!  He dismisses all the opportunities given Edward to bite her and he didn't.  He just does not see or care to see beyond what is in HIS interests.  He is selfish in wanting her to do what works best in his mind.  His attitude is that Bella may love him but she will get over it and he will get to have her instead of the vampire guy.  NO...that for me is by no means a true love's behavior.

Bella tells Jacob at every turn she is not interested in him and that she still has feelings for Edward.  She knows he likes her.  She knows he is holding her hand for reasons she does not like to admit, but she selfishly allows this because of convenience.  He served to keep her mind ON her true love as she used him to see Edward via all the things they did together (outside of homework).  She knows she would have to be honest with him if she ever wanted him in her life as a boyfriend and she never decides he is worth that...he never learns he was used.  That is selfish not true love.

Both are selfish in how they behave and that is not how love behaves!

On the other hand, Edward provides a perfect example of unselfishness at the end of the book.  He thanks Jacob for protecting Bella and says to his enemy if there is anything he could do for him.  Jacob's response is a selfish one...he wants Edward to leave.  He knows how Bella loves him but this does not matter to Jacob.  Only what serves him matters.  He suggests that Edward leave and Edward once more shows his unselfishness by retorting that he will not only not leave her but will leave her simply based on HER choice.  Love is shown in his giving Bella the decision to have him stay or go.  He places his role in Bella's life directly on Bella!  Edward tells Jacob she makes those decisions and not him.  THAT is a real example of how love SHOULD work.  Meanwhile Jacob is wanting who he knows belongs to another...Bella.  He shows no concern or thought to what he saw in her during Edward's absence.  He does not have the foresight/sagacity to consider reflection that would have him think back to her state of being in Edward's absence.  All he knows and cares about is what works best for him.  He sees vampires as the worse things on the planet.  They are all the same no matter that the Cullen's have kept every promise...no matter that he had broken the treaty by telling Bella the story (in twilight) which should they want would have allowed the Cullen's to come after the (at that time) ONE wolf in LaPush...Sam!  But Edward did not do this!!!  He knew what was done and now Jake knows he knew and did not attack, but Jacob's hate is too great to care.  A heart filled with a hateful nature is not going to be fair about a girl who loves what he hates.  There is and should be a difference in hating some THING and hating some ONE.  Jacob hated both.  In addition, there are more than a single vampire in Forks, but all of the hatred we see in Jacob is directed only at one:  Edward.  That makes it less about being a vampire and more about being Bella choice in my humble opinion.  HE was so clueless that only Edward mattered when it was already discussed and settled that Edward (and Rose though by default) were the ONLY vampire NOT willing to change her!  Edward is made the single target when Carlisle has actually already agreed to do this.  Edward is blamed when it was Bella who forced this on Edward.  Yet Jacob blames just one (Edward) as 'hurting' her, completely ignorant that Edward would never hurt her either!  This is either bad writing or the minding of an ignorant immature character.  Either way...it's not love.

Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not want what belongs to others. It does not brag. It is not proud. It is not rude. It does not look out for its own interests. It does not easily become angry. It does not keep track of other people’s wrongs. 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love does not brag.

I define that as it doesn't try to make an impression or create an image for personal gain.

So when I look at the relationships of the trio and seek  if anyone tried to impress some one, the only person who seems to tries to impress or create an image of himself is once more...Jacob.  I can not recall a time when Bella or Edward does this.

willing to cut himself so she can watch him heal

comparing wolf skills to vampire skills

using being human as a emotional weapon

gives her a gift that he could had easily given her in private at her home at an event where he knew Edward would be attending and possibly witness or quickly learn of the gift exchange. 

grow his hair out for her

lying to gain a kiss from her

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