Jacob's and Bella's Kiss
I am always changing my mind through new moon and eclipse who would be better for Bella! I want to know whether she really meant that kiss or was just trying to keep Jacob from doing something silly?
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Permalink Reply by Barbara Allen on -
To me, it was clear that Bella was trying to keep Jacob safe, to go into battle against the ferocious newborns feeling strong and positive about his life when she asked him to kiss her. In the book she had a vision of what her life would be like with him during that kiss. and yes, it would have been good and happy but not the life she was most eager for, one with Edward, and one in which she would no longer be clumsy and just average. She wanted to become outstanding from a human viewpoint. She certainly accomplished that. She was able to give birth to a half vampire baby and be turned in order to avoid ending her life completely. She was able to quickly overcome her newborn craving for human blood and care for her baby (and even meet with her father), demonstrating her super self control. She was able to defend the whole Cullen family and all their friends from the witch twins and also the family bond dissolving powers of one of Aro's wives to avoid the battle that we actually saw acted out in Breaking Dawn, Part 2, the movie. In the book there was a hint that Aro knew he would be sorry if he went into battle with the Cullen clan, once he took Alice's hand, yet it wasn't spelled out as it was in the movie. Such a great story, that saga!!
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Permalink Reply by JJ on -
To me, it was clear that Bella was trying to keep Jacob safe, to go into battle against the ferocious newborns feeling strong and positive about his life when she asked him to kiss her.
In the book she had a vision of what her life would be like with him during that kiss. and yes, it would have been good and happy but not the life she was most eager for, one with Edward, and one in which she would no longer be clumsy and just average.
-- Like you said, I agree that the kiss was both.
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Permalink Reply by Elita on
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and yes, it [life with Jacob] would have been good and happy
Why so many believe that it would be so happy and good?
Bella never did love Jacob in that way. She was unhappy during New Moon when she spent time with Jacob.
And somehow people try ignore the fact that actually Bella does not have that vision by herself, she simply finally understands Jacob's point. The proof - the fact that she immediately switches off vision after black-haired children appears. That is not what she wants!
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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It is about 3 months that Jacob and Bella spend together before Bella leaves to go after Edward. It is repeated over and over by Bella and observed by Charlie and her friends at school that Bella is better after spending time with Jacob. If their friendship was able to make her feel better in that short period of time and she does contimplate a romantic relationship with him, given more time it seems reasonable that Bella would continue to get better and better. In a world without Edward, Bella would have been with Jacob.
And somehow people try ignore the fact that actually Bella does not have that vision by herself, she simply finally understands Jacob's point. The proof - the fact that she immediately switches off vision after black-haired children appears. That is not what she wants!
-- Actually, she does want it...
"The part worst..." I hesitated, and then let words spill out in a flood of truth. "The worst part is that I saw the whole thing - our whole life. And I want it bad, Jake, I want it all. I want to stay right here and never move. I want to love you and make you happy. And I can't, and it's killing me. It's like Sam and Emily, Jake - I never had a choice. I always knew nothing would change. Maybe that's why I was fighting against you so hard."
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on -
JJ
Elita says that Bella is just recalling what Jacob had said to her. You are saying that she wanted a life with Jacob due to being in love. You used a quote from the book here and I would add the information given by his bedside would qualify as her professing love for Jacob in this same way. However, is there anything that would make you questions these few pages? Can the writer write something that goes against her own story and would that show she has presented flawed work?
In the past you have said you do not always agree with an author. So is there anyway these pages could be wrong in your opinion? If yes, what would Meyer need to say in the story for you to consider what Elita says as possible/probable? Is there any scenario where you would accept that Elita is right or at least legitimacy in her views? If so, what would that need to include for you? If no, would you explain why?
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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However, is there anything that would make you questions these few pages? Can the writer write something that goes against her own story and would that show she has presented flawed work?
-- Can the writer? Yes. But did she? Not really, because for me it makes sense that Bella loves both Jacob and Edward. IF Bella suddenly decided that she did love Jacob more than Edward, then I would see that as a contradiction or flaw in the story, because the story is about Edward and Bella. Jacob's character does not stop that, so therefore I do not see it as a contradiction for Bella to be in love with both Jacob and Edward, as long as she chooses Edward, which she does.
In the past you have said you do not always agree with an author. So is there anyway these pages could be wrong in your opinion?
-- No, and let me say why. Meyers has at least two opportunities for Bella to recant her love for Jacob.
The first one being right after she has kissed Jacob and she is upset. Edward says specifically that she loves Jacob and her response is that she loves Edward MORE. She could have denied it and said that the kiss was just an overly emotional moment and that she didn't mean it. That she was caught up in the moment, but Meyers does not have Bella do that. Instead once again Bella is confirming that she does love Jacob, but loves Edward MORE.
The other example is one that I quoted above. Jacob asks Bella what the worst part was and her answer is that despite that she does wants it, she can't give him her because she already belongs to Edward. There are other times in this same moment when Bella comes to visit Jacob after he was hurt when Meyers again could have had Bella recant her love for Jacob, but Meyers did not do that. Instead confirms that it was better for Bella that she be aware of her feelings for Jacob so that she could then put Jacob in the right place and Edward in the right place.
I would say a third time would be after Bella cries all night and Edward asks Bella if she is making the right decision by being with him. Bella was so upset that it made Edward question if she was doing the right thing. It showed how hard the decision was for Bella, but also how much Bella loves Edward in that she picks him over her love for Jacob.
If yes, what would Meyer need to say in the story for you to consider what Elita says as possible/probable?
-- I believe I answered that in my examples above. Meyers had the opportunity to have Bella recant her being in love with Jacob and Meyers made the decision to not do so. Therefore it should be considered a fact based on the books that Jacob loves Bella and that Bella loves Jacob.
Is there any scenario where you would accept that Elita is right or at least legitimacy in her views? If so, what would that need to include for you? If no, would you explain why?
-- When I can find a direct quote from the books that contrast something that Elita says then I see no way for her view to be right. Because in order for Elita to be right, then the book itself has to be wrong.
I also think that fact that Elita sees Jacob and Bella as a brother/sister, friendship, that is 100% platonic is completely not accurate. There is quite a bit of sexual tension between them which Elita ignores because she doesn't want to see it. Lorece brought up the point that Meyers names a chapter in NM Paris, when talking about Jacob. Paris was a romantic rival. That was very clear foreshadowing in NM that Jacob was to become a romantic rival to Edward (Romeo).
I do see Elita's point and I understand that Elita comes from the perspective that Twilight is about ONE true love, and for Bella to have TWO loves contradicts that. However, I do not agree with Elita that Twilight is about One True Love, but rather about the complexcity of love. That Bella is not with Edward because she couldn't love another, but she is with Edward inspite of loving another.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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JJ
Thank you for taking the time to be so specific in your answer.
for me it makes sense that Bella loves both Jacob and Edward. IF Bella suddenly decided that she did love Jacob more than Edward, then I would see that as a contradiction or flaw in the story, because the story is about Edward and Bella. Jacob's character does not stop that, so therefore I do not see it as a contradiction for Bella to be in love with both Jacob and Edward, as long as she chooses Edward, which she does.
Here is what I understand you to be saying here. For you, the only way the story is wrong is if Meyer writes that Bella changes her desire for Edward; and anything less than that is acceptable as love for Jacob if it is stated in the story. Meyer has Bella say it is real and that is all that is needed for you to believe it is real. Meyer has Bella repeat it in the story ; thus, Meyer has confirmed it for you. So basically, the words on the page as written are the reason for you to see no other reason to discuss this in any other way. The words are so matter of fact and puts all else to rest for you. Am I right? If not, please explain. Also, What about the vision Bella has specifically? Is there any way that was wrong? If I understood her right, Eltia is saying that this was Bella recalling what Jacob saw and not what Bella wanted. Is that what you thought she said and what you disagree with because you feel the topic is true as written there as well? And if there is more to that than just Bella saying it, would you please share that too?
-- No, and let me say why. Meyers has at least two opportunities for Bella to recant her love for Jacob.
The first one being right after she has kissed Jacob and she is upset. Edward says specifically that she loves Jacob and her response is that she loves Edward MORE. She could have denied it and said that the kiss was just an overly emotional moment and that she didn't mean it. That she was caught up in the moment, but Meyers does not have Bella do that. Instead once again Bella is confirming that she does love Jacob, but loves Edward MORE.
Here again, it is the words spoken by Bella that causes you to define her as being in love with Jacob too. Correct?
-- I believe I answered that in my examples above. Meyers had the opportunity to have Bella recant her being in love with Jacob and Meyers made the decision to not do so. Therefore it should be considered a fact based on the books that Jacob loves Bella and that Bella loves Jacob.
And again, for you the story holds true because Meyer has Bella make a statement of loving Jacob. Meyer would need to recant the love comment and until she recants it, Bella IS in love with Jacob too. So would that mean that Bella is and will always be in love with Jacob forever?
-- When I can find a direct quote from the books that contrast something that Elita says then I see no way for her view to be right. Because in order for Elita to be right, then the book itself has to be wrong.
So all quotes are absolutes? How/What is the difference of this and saying the writer can not make a mistake in what they write?
I also think that fact that Elita sees Jacob and Bella as a brother/sister, friendship, that is 100% platonic is completely not accurate. There is quite a bit of sexual tension between them which Elita ignores because she doesn't want to see it. Lorece brought up the point that Meyers names a chapter in NM Paris, when talking about Jacob. Paris was a romantic rival. That was very clear foreshadowing in NM that Jacob was to become a romantic rival to Edward (Romeo).
As this is off topic in my view, I will just say, that is not what I read from Elita’s comments. You may want to reread Shakespeare for yourself instead of relying on Lorece as well. ;-)
I do see Elita's point and I understand that Elita comes from the perspective that Twilight is about ONE true love, and for Bella to have TWO loves contradicts that. However, I do not agree with Elita that Twilight is about One True Love, but rather about the complexcity of love. That Bella is not with Edward because she couldn't love another, but she is with Edward inspite of loving another.
While I admit it is very possible that I have seen Elita wrong, I do not see her as you do. I do not see her saying that a writer can not write more than one love, but that Meyer did not write more than one true love. I also did not see that as Elita’s point in what she wrote here. I thought here she was speaking about the vision and not the love. I see love as the overview but the vision is the specific point here for her. I asked about the general love theme.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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I am working on a more detailed and lenghty response but I wanted to ask a quick question that I think your answer might help me form my more lengthy answer.
You asked: So all quotes are absolutes? How/What is the difference of this and saying the writer can not make a mistake in what they write?
My question:
Is it fair to say that "mistakes" that the writer makes (or contradictions) would be there by accident? Because logic says that if the writer realized she was making a mistake or contradiction that she would have fixed it. So I'm asking if it is a fair assumption that the writer most likely doesn't realize that she is making a mistake or contradiction?
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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What I believe should not matter in your answer. I am asking your thoughts and not a rebuttal to my thoughts. I welcome your stating how you would view this using any and all scenarios you would like. I AM NOT trying to set you up. I just want your answers to be completely yours without influence. My desire is to understand better your views on this. The questions are not to show you where we differ at all. We already know we do and neither of us will change our views and I am FINE in that as I have said to you many times. I am simply attempting to learn more about what made that difference for you as oppose to Elita and myself. You will get no offense of your personal views from me.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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I'm sorry but I won't be answering the question until you do answer my above question. If that creates a stand still where neither of us answer then I am fine with that.
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