Jacob's and Bella's Kiss
I am always changing my mind through new moon and eclipse who would be better for Bella! I want to know whether she really meant that kiss or was just trying to keep Jacob from doing something silly?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on -
Hi Ellena!
I would love to discuss this with you, but I will only do so if the goal is to really discuss it through and through until we both come to a conclusion to what you asked. It would mean putting our egos aside and really examining what Meyer actually wrote/said about this and the credibility thereof. It would mean that when we come to places where we differ, we will not get angry or run away but talk it out because we are really more interested in learning an answer that we can accept.
I do have very strong opinions about this and it is sort of in-depth, but I would welcome your criticisms of it (if you differed in views) as I do not need to be right about twilight whatsoever, but I do need arguments to show thought beyond just telling me you can believe whatever you want. After all, believing whatever you want is a given, isn't it? LOL I would welcome your questions of my views and ask that you welcome mine as it would serve me to rethink what I read the story to say. I would question you too and do so thoroughly so that I am sure I understand what you are saying.
Now if you are interested in discussion at this level without getting angry should we differ, I will share my views. If not then I will refrain. So just let me know.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on -
For me the saddest part of this kiss is that they are BOTH manipulating each other during the kiss. Jacob starts it by threatening suicide and then Bella manipulates Jacob by saying that she has changed her mind and will pick him. I believe that Jacob walked away from that kiss believing that once the battle was over that he would have Bella to come back to, which we all know wasn't the case.
I do feel like the movie most likely gave an accurate visual aid to the kiss. (Even though I agree that the movie did not properly show Jacob's manipulation) The kiss was slow to start and then it became quite passionate. In the book Bella wants more and more, and I believe that Jacob would have kissed her as passionately as he could. Also it was Jacob who finally stopped them (and not Bella) and that is another action that I use as proof that it was a very passionate kiss because I believe that Jacob would have got some good kissing in before he thought about stopping.
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Permalink Reply by Elita on
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I really should reread that part because I remember that Bella already did stop that kiss and was trying to hold her tears.
And I do not remember that part about Bella saying she was going to choose Jacob. I need to look into book.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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"Jacob's lips were still before mine were." - That means that Jacob stopped kissing Bella before Bella stopped kissing him.
Now granted this is after Jacob has threatened suicide, so he did start the manipulations. However here is Bella's manipulation.
"No, Jacob! I won't let you!"
"How will you stop me?"
"Jacob, I'm begging you. Stay with me." I would have fallen to my knees, if I could have moved at all.
"For fifteen minutes while I miss a good brawl? So that you can run away from me as you think I'm safe again? You've got to be kidding."
"I won't run away. I've change my mind. We'll work something out, Jacob. There's always a compromise. Don't go!"
"You're lying."
"I'm not. You know what a terrible liar I am. Look in my eyes. I'll stay if you do."
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"Will you kiss me, Jacob?"
His eyes widened in surpise, then narrowed suspiciously. "You're bluffing."
"Kiss me, Jacob. Kiss me, and then come back."
***
I do agree that Jacob was wrong when he thought that when he came back that he would have Bella to return to, but I have a hard time blaming him for thinking that. Bella DID manipulate him, just as badly as he manipulated her. :(
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Yeah. She did not play fair. But because she tried to keep him alive. I can not blame her for that.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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Elita or JJ
May I have permission to speak freely to you as to what may be the differences between you and why?
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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You have my permission to say anything that you would like, I'm not sure that you needed it, but thank you for asking.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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Thank you JJ
The reason I asked for permission to join in is because I try to have what I would prefer for myself be the standard I give others. I do not particularly care when I am having a direct back and forth with someone to have some one join in uninvited to take a position. There is a difference to my mind of someone talking to all here on a thread and talking to a particular person/group. It is sort of like how I am or try to be in my (real) life. If I come upon two people already talking, I do not join in their conversation without their permission. That is their conversation and if no one asked me to join them, then I should not insert my views having not been welcomed. I would need to know them really well to do so in reality; and even then, I would most likely ask first. :-) I try to apply that same courtesy here. It is imperfect, but I do try to think of people here as I would in a physical setting applying the same rules of what I hope are good manners. Again, I do know I am imperfect, but that is the motivation for my asking your permission. ;-) Now that I have your permission, I feel free to be candid.
I have read through the back and forth between you two and a few others on the site on the issue of emotions in the story. I myself came here initially for answers to some areas that I just could not settle in my mind. Since then, I have grown to a clearer understanding about why these conflicts are so diverse and steeped in all of our minds. I believe it is rooted in how vastly different we are in not only how we read but what are our personal values. I believe those are the dividing points between many to include you and Elita.
One must recognize that we all bring our own biases and yes, those dictate the way we see all that we see from characters to series to films, authors, etc. this is an innate quality from which no one can escape! Here you and Elita differ not because one of you are wrong but the real issue is in how you read and your personal values. The battle is over the right to value or devalue what your definitions of reality is and does it stop within or without the pages of a fictional story.
Now I have my biases too but being aware of that allows me I believe a little more objectivity in looking at what you both said. Why because I am aware of them and thus can put them in check to survey this from both sides. Honestly? I see you both as being right to a degree. As I already said, I believe it is about how you both read.
Elita appears to me to be more of the person who reads (please forgive me as I am having a vocabulary lapse) what I will call though perhaps not the right word choice: inclusive. She comes across as a person who is objective as nothing said by the author is acceptable unless/until she has shown it on the pages as true to the story with credibility based not in what the writer says were her intentions, but what she presented within the story to support all she later says. The standard for her seems to surround does the story read credible by her standards. In others words, nothing is true because we are told the author wrote it on the pages……it is only true to her when the writing on the pages shows that as the logical/commonsense conclusion. It is the story that speaks to the whole and not whatever is written for a character to say in a given moment.
You would then be the opposite: exclusive. You rely more on simply following the author. Once the writer has said it…it is settled to your mind. Rather than seek how the story does not line up…you seek ways to make it line up and thus all you read surrounds seeking support for what the author says. This is not necessarily a conscious choice either, but your goal is to have what the author says….connect in you mind to his/her conclusion. Very little should be questioned as the writer is the one who created the story and thus hardly can be seen as wrong about her/his own characters as they came from their minds and thus they own them.
While I am only giving my opinion and perhaps I am wrong, but if I am not, it speaks to why you two differ. Elita is seeking coordination of all of what she read in the story to congeal her to the moment we are told the kiss meant Bella learned of her already present love for Jacob. She seeks how to have this and the rest of the story read credible when it does not for her seem to follow a path that allows this moment to read as honest to the character. For you, it is more of it is real not only because the author has said it but because you can find ways to have it fit to meet the writers conclusion.
Then there are our values. By this, I mean how we define certain things in our personal lives. This is very important as how we read the characters as being realistic does rely on our personal sense of their behaviors meeting a criteria that was formed in our minds before we ever read the story. And once we read the story…how much of those values either fit our own or we are willing to release to allow the story to stand as realistic. ;-) It is there we find the greatest crux. Because Meyer is defining love for us and dependent on your ability to agree with her…you will be able to accept both the writings and her interviews on the topic. The battle you two are having is not only one about what you read in this story but a battle of personal principles we hold as to what we define as love. While you are willing to allow Meyers words to be a plausible meaning for how true love behaves….be it for only a story or not…Elita is not. For her, the standards of true love is a measurement far higher than what Meyer offers here and thus the idea of the moment having meaning to the degree Meyer gives simply is not realistic to her mind.
I do hope that made sense and Elita, I do hope I have not misrepresented you, or insulted either of you with my humble offerings of theories in obsevation.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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Thank you for your assessment and observation. I think in general it is correct, but not sure what we are supposed to do with this assessment. I even think that Elita and I have talked about these differences before, especially how we see love.
For myself it doesn't really matter what my opinion on love is, but rather what Meyer's opinion is. I read the story through the filter of the writer and if there is something about the story that doesn't make sense to me I go to the writer to figure out what they were trying to say. I do not feel like as readers we should completely disregard what the author says, simply because we do not agree with them, especially when it is about the story that THEY wrote. That seems arrogant and rude. Who am I to correct Stephenie Meyers and tell her that she is wrong?
Elita ignores things in the book that do not agree with her belief and then tells other people here that they are not correct, when the evidence does not support Elita's opinion because she does not believe the evidence to be substantial.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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Thank you for your assessment and observation.
Thank you for receiving it as intended.
I think in general it is correct, but not sure what we are supposed to do with this assessment.
I am pleased to read that some parts did resonate as realistic. As to what you should do with it? In my humble opinion, that answer can only be learned once you know what it is that you want from Elita.
I even think that Elita and I have talked about these differences before, especially how we see love.
So if you already know how you feel, why do you still respond to her? What is the goal for you at this point? (And I am only asking you because we are talking.)
For myself it doesn't really matter what my opinion on love is, but rather what Meyer's opinion is.
So would it be fair to say that for you the writer can not be wrong?
I read the story through the filter of the writer and if there is something about the story that doesn't make sense to me I go to the writer to figure out what they were trying to say.
So you do not interpret anything for yourself…you just accept and repeat whatever the author tells you to think?
I do not feel like as readers we should completely disregard what the author says, simply because we do not agree with them, especially when it is about the story that THEY wrote.
I am confused here. What does not completely disagree mean?
That seems arrogant and rude. Who am I to correct Stephenie Meyers and tell her that she is wrong?
So to you all authors are flawless?
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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I am pleased to read that some parts did resonate as realistic. As to what you should do with it? In my humble opinion, that answer can only be learned once you know what it is that you want from Elita.
-- I want her to stop telling other people that they are wrong to believe that Jacob and Bella loved each other romantically. It is fine for her to have her opinion on the subject and I don't think she needs to change her opinion, even though I do think her opinion is incorrect. Based on that... I don't want her to continue to be wrong and would prefer her to change her mind. Not so that 'I' can be right, but because I would want to do the same if I were wrong. If I am not reading the story correctly then 'I' would want to know.
So if you already know how you feel, why do you still respond to her? What is the goal for you at this point? (And I am only asking you because we are talking.)
-- I think I answered that in my above statement.
So you do not interpret anything for yourself…you just accept and repeat whatever the author tells you to think?
-- No, of course I do. But if there is something in the story that I find confusing (therefore I have thought about it and interpreted it for myself) then I go to the author to see what they were trying to say. If you write a letter to someone and they misinterpret something you said. Is the reader correct? Or you as the writer of the letter, correct? I would say that you as the writer of the letter is correct and hopefully the reader of that letter would give you the opportunity to clarify what you meant to say. I believe that has happened to Meyers. Some readers have not understood what she tried to say and therefore she has taken to her website to add clarity to what she meant to say.
I do not feel like as readers we should completely disregard what the author says, simply because we do not agree with them, especially when it is about the story that THEY wrote.
I am confused here. What does not completely disagree mean?
-- I said disregard, not disagree. By disregard, I mean ignore. As the reader we shouldn't ignore some portion of the book simply because we do not understand what the writer was saying.
So would it be fair to say that for you the writer can not be wrong? -- So to you all authors are flawless?
-- I do not think that question is so black and white and easy to answer. All writers are human and therefore being flawless isn't an option.
-- There are several things throughout the Twilight saga that I would consider to be mistakes.
Examples:
I feel like Meyers is very inconsistent with Alice's abilities and her limitations.
I technically think that Jacob should have phased in Twilight when he went to the prom. He was near 5 vampires in the confines of a school gymnasium. But Meyers has said that she didn't think about Jacob being an shape shifter until she made the decision to expand the story beyond just a sequel. So it wasn't possible for Jacob to phase then because Meyers hadn't thought of it and she didn't have the opportunity to change that because Twilight was already written and published.
At first I thought that Jacob's imprinting on Nessie was because Meyers really didn't know what to do with him once the "love triangle" was over and I thought it was a very cheap way of giving Jacob a "happy ending". However after I learned about the original sequel to Twilight would have been Forever Dawn, and in that rough draft Meyers already had the idea of Jacob imprinting on Bella's daughter. So the evidence did not support what I thought to be true so it changed my mind.
Bella's mind shield. I think Meyers is inconsistent on who is blocked and who is not. I can see how Alice would be able to see Bella, but I really do not think that Jasper should have been able to affect Bella or at least it should have been more difficult for him to do so. I also think that Kate should have hurt Bella because it was a physical zap where Jane was a mental pain (and therefore made since for it to not hurt Bella).
-- So yes I think that writers/authors can make mistakes and be inconsistent. Which is why I think it is so important to listen to the writer and make what they say on their website or Q&A sessions to know what they meant to say, which can be even more important than what they actually did say.
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