Jacob's and Bella's Kiss
I am always changing my mind through new moon and eclipse who would be better for Bella! I want to know whether she really meant that kiss or was just trying to keep Jacob from doing something silly?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Elita on
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I think... if author must explain what he/she wanted to say, it ruins the value of story...
But as for Meyers works, the problem is more complicate. She writes one thing n books and says another things in interviews. (Maybe she have a twin? :D)
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on -
I think... if author must explain what he/she wanted to say, it ruins the value of story...
Hi Elita!
I do hope I have not offended you here. I think I understand your meanings. It is one thing to explain what is written that the reader misunderstood and another to need to tell the story because you had not completely done so in your story. The story should already exist on the page and in the writers additions, it should make clear(er) what was already there. I do not wish to change your meaning, but this is how I understood it.
Writers must make the story clear enough that when they explain we are able to go back into the story as see our mistakes in our interpretations. If that can not be accomplished…then it is flawed writing.
But as for Meyers works, the problem is more complicate. She writes one thing n books and says another things in interviews. (Maybe she have a twin? :D)
I would love to discuss this more. I will not do that here, though. If you want to join me in the off-topics section, I have a twilight in review thread where we can talk about anything?
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I am OK with Jacob's imprinting in Forever Dawn. I am shocked about his imprinting in Breaking Dawn. After he tried so hard to become Bellas lover, imprinting n Bellas daughter is creepy.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on -
I actually agree with you. I think that the "love triangle" should have never happened. If Meyers knew that Jacob would be with Bella's daughter (and she did!!) then she shouldn't have made Jacob and Bella romantic. It is kind of gross.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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Hi JJ!
I came thinking you were answering me; and learned you were actually responding to Elita, without so much as hinting to me that you planned to address what I wrote to you. Did I offend you? Is this a dismissal?
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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Pinkie
I wasn't offended, but yours just too longer to reply too and Elita's comment did not take very long so it came first.
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Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
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JJ, I have been here long enough to learn that it is very easy to have someone misunderstand you and have that lead to anger/hurt feelings. I do not want that to happen with us so if I say anything that you do not appreciate, please let me know and I will apologize as it is not my goal to offend, but I do try to be honest. So please before you get angry (if I make you feel that way) tell me I am offensive so I can correct it. With hoping we are in agreement of this, I will respond.
-- I want her to stop telling other people that they are wrong to believe that Jacob and Bella loved each other romantically. It is fine for her to have her opinion on the subject and I don't think she needs to change her opinion, even though I do think her opinion is incorrect. Based on that... I don't want her to continue to be wrong and would prefer her to change her mind. Not so that 'I' can be right, but because I would want to do the same if I were wrong. If I am not reading the story correctly then 'I' would want to know.
What I heard you say is that Elita is allowed to think whatever she wants as long as she does not tell others what she really thinks. The reason as to why? Because according to you, she is wrong. She is wrong because again according to you, only how you have determined one should interpret a reading (i.e. giving as much indulgence to the author) is acceptable/right. She is wrong because what you have declared as right matters more than what she sees as right. My point is not in making you sound arrogant, but having you see how easily we can choose for another person what should be allowed/accepted. There is no reason why you both should not post what you think and allow those who agree with how you see it to post to both of you as desired. There is no reason that should someone want to show another wrong respecting their core beliefs should not be allowed too, but when you disrespect them…that is different. In doing so, you go beyond the writers freedoms to the readers freedoms as those are different.
You also say that if you were wrong you would want someone to show you, but how is that possible if you already know the core of how you both read the story differ and you already deemed yours as right? JJ, does it not stand to reason that if you two read differently at the core, then there is no bridging to be done, or even a wrong to be corrected? Would telling her anything more only say that you have decided that she can only be right or wrong based on having your views trump her own? Would it only be fair if you said she was wrong in how she read the story by first seeing it from her perspective and then make show a mistake within that scope of you both having the same standards for the topic? Do you not see that if your cores are not aligned then nothing else will be? JJ, it is because you have already told me that you know that you two read differently, that I feel that I have reason to say the only way for her to be wrong is for you to show her within how she reads why she is wrong or you are saying that only how you read should be acceptable. Are you saying she is wrong to read differently from you and thus you want to change this about her? In addition, if that is what you want, how is that accepting/respecting how she reads?
-- No, of course I do. But if there is something in the story that I find confusing (therefore I have thought about it and interpreted it for myself) then I go to the author to see what they were trying to say. If you write a letter to someone and they misinterpret something you said. Is the reader correct? Or you as the writer of the letter, correct? I would say that you as the writer of the letter is correct and hopefully the reader of that letter would give you the opportunity to clarify what you meant to say. I believe that has happened to Meyers. Some readers have not understood what she tried to say and therefore she has taken to her website to add clarity to what she meant to say.
This is a good example about how we interpret. Based on what I read…Elita/other readers would not believed she/they misinterpreted ‘the letter’ to start with! Thus, they would not need the additional clarification. What Meyer says to those of you who were confused possibly would not change Elita’s initial interpretation as Elita and her kind understood it and Meyer’s additions were possibly not only unnecessary for the Elitas; but quite possibly served only to confirm what they originally thought. Again this is because of how we all differ in how we read.
-- I said disregard, not disagree. By disregard, I mean ignore. As the reader we shouldn't ignore some portion of the book simply because we do not understand what the writer was saying.
Yes you did find a flaw in my retyping of what you wrote. I apologize for the poor transcription. By no means was I trying to trivialize your word choice. It was an honest mistake. That said, “disregard” also was not my focus. The word that I had placed in bold, which was, “completely” was actually the word I was emphasizing, JJ. I did not understand its meaning in the context you wrote and was hoping to gain clearer understanding. I was clear as to what disregard meant…I did not understand “completely.” In what I read between you, Elita did not “completely disregard” what Meyer said, she simply did not agree with it. Thus, I was unclear as to what you meant in using the word “completely.” Sorry for the misunderstanding and I would still appreciate understanding of your word choice of “completely” if that is okay?
-- I do not think that question is so black and white and easy to answer. All writers are human and therefore being flawless isn't an option.
While, I do see it as black and white, we agree on your second sentence. Having said that, in your reading of Meyers additional comments about the books in her Q&A or wherever, do you personally completely agree with her explanations? If not, why not? If yes, does that mean we all should? If not, why not and if yes or no, are we allowed to voice that? If not, why not and of we are, should we have that right here on this site?
-- So yes I think that writers/authors can make mistakes and be inconsistent. Which is why I think it is so important to listen to the writer and make what they say on their website or Q&A sessions to know what they meant to say, which can be even more important than what they actually did say.
Again, what if you differ once you have gone through this entire process? To your mind, JJ, are those opposing views acceptable for discussion with others who may either agree or be open to discussions without attempt to discredit their point of views?
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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It has nothing to do with me! It is not about how 'I' interpret the story or about how 'Elita' interprets the story or anyone for that matter. It is about Stephenie Meyers and the story that 'she' wrote. I find it extremely arrogant for any one of us to say something or interpret something in these stories and then say that 'we' are right and 'Stephenie Meyers' is wrong. And that is exactly what Elita says. I'll repeat, it has nothing to do with me at all.
Back to the letter example. Just because a reader is not aware that they misinterpreted something in the letter, does not mean that they didn't.
Elita completely ignores what Stephenie Meyers says (and Bella herself after kissing Jacob) about Bella's feelings for Jacob and when these feelings developed. The reason she ignores them is because based on her own beliefs what Meyers says does not make sense. So therefore she ignores it. So that is what I meant about "completely".
I think that anything can be discussed and debated. There is nothing wrong with debates and I think they are actually good because it makes your mind stretch and think in a way that it did not before the debate or discussion. There are many great things throughout this book that can be debated because it is one opinion vs. another opinion and quite honestly there are times when neither is "wrong" but simply have a differing opinion.
Edward or Jacob? - That is strictly opinion and neither are really wrong or right. However if someone calls Edward abusive or Jacob a pedophile, then those would be wrong.
Even Meyers can have an opinion. - "Bella has another option. She has a really good one." - That is her opinion and as a reader I feel that we have the right to disagree or agree with her. However if she is giving us something that would be considered a fact as part of the story, then it is not her opinion but rather a particular truth. Those truths should not be debated. I am not saying that they cannot be debated, but the outcome should align with what Meyers believes about her own story. Because it is HER story.
Pinkie - I feel like I have some how insulted you or you feel like I have insulted Elita and have felt the need to come to her defense. I apologize if my communication with Elita is offensive to you.
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To be clear: I believe what Meyer writes. I do not believe what she says!!
She writes excellent love story, full of emotions, manages to show it's light and dark sides, makes us to feel for characters - and then out of blue states that girl is in love with another one... although girls actions in Meyer 's own books do not show any signs of falling love with another one. Only proof is girl's words (which happens to be in contradiction with her actions) and author's statement in interview. So should I believe to book or an interview? And what if after some years Meyer will change her mind again and will say that Jacob always was like a little brother for Bella?
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By the way... There were cases before when authors, so to say, did not understand or even misinterpret their own stories.
We have an example in my country. 150 years there was published a novel about life in countryside. It became very popular soon after publishing, and students study it still in our days. Till very death author believed his work became popular because of criminal line but today it is counted as weakest part of novel, but the real worth is describing of characters and changes of lifestyle at that time.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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"To be clear: I believe what Meyer writes. I do not believe what she says!!"
Just to be clear, I think that is extremely rude to Meyers to not believe what she says. Especially when she is talking about her own story.
Sometimes I think we need to understand that Bella is not a reliable source of information and while writing she is the only voice that Meyers has. --- "Bella's is a lack of self-knowledge; she never would have pursued her friendship with Jacob if she had realized how much more than friendship it really was. You don't give up your friends when you fall in love; however, you do give up your other romantic interests. If Bella had understood herself better, she could have saved everyone a lot of heartbreak."
So if Bella is not aware of her own feelings, then of course those feelings will not be present on the pages of the book because Bella isn't aware of them. And because Meyers was limited by writing in first person I believe that it makes since that there will be times that she might have to add clarity later because Meyers cannot explain something in the pages of her book that BELLA does not know.
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Permalink Reply by JJ on
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Are you meaning to say that interpretations are not allowed?
Thus, only Meyer gets to interpret the story?
I already answered that question. I am a mother of toddlers and I don't like repeating myself.
It had to do with you the moment you decided to challenge anyone’s interpretations on any level while also sayinjg this should not be allowed.
You are missing the point. It is not 'my' views, but Stephenie's Meyers views.
My point is not the topic, but that you gave your opinion and it differed completely from Meyer’s written work and interviews! Yet, you take issue with Elita’s giving her opinion that completely differed from Meyer’s. So while you are allowing yourself the choice of personal point of view in the story…you are not showing Elita the same coutesy of point of views.
The difference is sharing an opinion on something that happened. I would not have a problem with Elita (or anyone) saying that Bella should not have fallen in love with Jacob. (an opinion that I actually would agree with Elita on). But I have a problem with her saying that it did not happen. She doesn't have the right to say that because the author of the story has said that it DID happen, so therefore it did. You can debate it all you want, but the debate is pointless.
You can debate on whether vampires 'should' sparkle, but you can't debate on whether they do sparkle (at least in Meyer's world of vampires) because it is an established fact that they do.
However, in this case with Elita, the situation would be that she understood the letter and still disagreed. Key here is understanding.
Or maybe she thought she understood and really did not?
Like you, I read what Elita wrote and I did not fnd her comment to have ignored anything. So do I believe myself in what I read and I understood of Elita’s post?
Elita - “To be clear: I believe what Meyer writes. I do not believe what she says!!”
I personally do not see how Elita can be more clear that she 'is' ignoring what Meyers is saying. If I am miss reading that, then I don't know what else to think of what she said.
Elita and I have been communicating on this site for well over a year, maybe even close to two years. I'm not sure what you have read and what you have not read during our time of communication, and I don't need you to tell me.
Still lost to your meaning.
Sorry, I'm not going to repeat myself, but apologize for being confusing to you.
You would have to explain to me how this is possible when you already said that whatever Meyer says is to be acceptable in your view as right. How do you debate a topic you believe one can debate what you already said can not be challenged?
I already gave examples of that, I am not going to do it again. I give very specific examples of things that should and not not be debated. Not that they cannot be debated, but the debate is pointless. But if people really want to do it... have fun.
Not even when it contradicts what is she says elsewhere?
YES! Yes! Yes! And Yes.
Based on this, a reader can only read the book and accept all of it as is, or dismiss it all totally and label it accordingly as awful work unworthy ever reading.
Yes, you are starting to get it. (and not sarcastic, even though I know it could sound that way)
My analogy places Meyer as an a painter of art.
It sounds like Meyers in this example is a very bad painter. I stand to say that the painter painted whatever it is that THEY think that they painted, even if no one can see it but the painter. If the person sees a duck, then that is unfortunate because they are not seeing what the “painter” desired to paint.
Your last section in regards to my communication with Elita, I personally did find to be very offensive and therefore I am choosing to not comment on specifics that you said. For someone who is not personally offended, you certainly sound like you are. I would like to say due to the lengthy time that I have spent communicating with Elita, I know her pretty well and have great respect for her. I often tell her when I am able to agree with her and it makes me very happy to be able to do so. The times that we do not agree, we both speak to each other respectfully.
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