Jacob's and Bella's Kiss
I am always changing my mind through new moon and eclipse who would be better for Bella! I want to know whether she really meant that kiss or was just trying to keep Jacob from doing something silly?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Pinkie on -
Part six
Even Meyers can have an opinion. - "Bella has another option. She has a really good one." - That is her opinion and as a reader I feel that we have the right to disagree or agree with her.
I am confused. If you believe this…why question Elita?
However if she is giving us something that would be considered a fact as part of the story, then it is not her opinion but rather a particular truth.
Not even when it contradicts what is she says elsewhere?
Those truths should not be debated.
JJ, would that not mean that fact and truth are be considered in your mind as equivalent?
I am not saying that they cannot be debated, but the outcome should align with what Meyers believes about her own story.
How is that different than saying she is flawless/infallible? Based on this, a reader can only read the book and accept all of it as is, or dismiss it all totally and label it accordingly as awful work unworthy ever reading.
Because it is HER story.
JJ, I will use an analogy here. My analogy places Meyer as a painter of art.
If Meyer painted a picture of a duck and said to me here is my painting of the Chagall’s La Mariee, I would be polite and smile. Would I think I saw Chagall’s La Mariee? No. I would think I saw a duck that the artist called Chagall’s La Mariee. Now if I was discussing this from the perspective of the artist? I would say this was her idea of Chagall’s La Mariee. Why? Because she said it. However, I would not see it as anything other than a duck. Why because that is what I see. Now in terms of discussion of the arts, both are right. While you seem to say here that I would be arrogant to dispute that the painting is not the Chagall’s La Mariee because it was that artist’s work and it is HERS to name? I would absolutely agree with you that both you and Meyer do get to call the work your idea of Chagall’s La Mariee. However, while you and Meyer can call what was created a Chagall’s La Mariee interpretation? There is nothing wrong with those who no matter how beautifully framed that painting is.....still see the duck on the canvas and thus call it as they see it……a duck!
JJ, The love of Bella and Jacob? The kiss as being menaingful? I think they are Elita's...duck. ;-)
-
Permalink Reply by JJ on -
Not even when it contradicts what is she says elsewhere?
YES! Yes! Yes! And Yes.
Based on this, a reader can only read the book and accept all of it as is, or dismiss it all totally and label it accordingly as awful work unworthy ever reading.
Yes, you are starting to get it. (and not sarcastic, even though I know it could sound that way)
My analogy places Meyer as an a painter of art.
It sounds like Meyers in this example is a very bad painter. I stand to say that the painter painted whatever it is that THEY think that they painted, even if no one can see it but the painter. If the person sees a duck, then that is unfortunate because they are not seeing what the “painter” desired to paint.
-
Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
-
YES! Yes! Yes! And Yes.
And accepted as how YOU read. I will keep your limitations in mind when reading your posts. However, this only means your deviating from your interpretations would mean you are wrong based in your interp[retations and not those who differ in their understanding of how to read. They too get to define how they read and their own understandings (just like you) and as they/we disagree with you on what is acceptable, by our standards, you are only right within the limits of YOUR views which have nothing to do with other's definition of what constitutes comprehension and credible interpretation. The same right to decide that for themselves would apply to them. Overwhelming complexities? JJ it is not that we differ, it is that you reject the difference. You seem only to want what you want to be allowed or deemed acceptable and you simply do not have that authority beyond doing that for yourself. You get to decide that for you and you alone. You get the agreement of those who choose to agree with you or those of us willing to allow you to have your views be how you see it. However each of us gets to decide how we read/see it for ourselves; and what is to be valued. If contradictions are allowed as credible to you, then we all should expect that and respect that…from you about your thoughts...but not for EVERY thought here! If contradictions shows for others that the writer is flawed and want to address that, then that too is credibility for US and not your decision to make for ALL! That is mutual respect JJ. Both having equality in opinions/freedoms.
Yes, you are starting to get it. (and not sarcastic, even though I know it could sound that way)
You did not sound sarcastic at all. If this is what you believe, I accept that as YOUR belief. I believe we all should discuss the book however we want with whomever we want. I HOPE we would choose to be respectful to others by instead of trying to force our views on them…we accept them as different. While I have differed from you, I am not the least bit angry with you. I will always defend your right to read Meyer in the way that you do although I could disagree with you on this point of how to read and Bella and Jacob being in love. What you believe to be acceptable is not for me, but I accept it as your feelings and will not tell you to stop or that you must see it as I do (which is what you are doing to Elita).
It sounds like Meyers in this example is a very bad painter. I stand to say that the painter painted whatever it is that THEY think that they painted, even if no one can see it but the painter. If the person sees a duck, then that is unfortunate because they are not seeing what the “painter” desired to paint.
Well,maybe my duck should had been a goat…the point is not what the painter desired see (and we do see it, )but the truth is what the painter painted and that was always ….a duck! ;-) No matter what the painter wanted it to be…no matter how she tried to explain it.....no matter how many JJ’s accept that….if the painting is of a duck on the canvas…we can humor her all we want but it is a duck on the canvas. A duck by any other name is still…just a renamed….duck!!!! Ther interpertations? Measrely explaining how feathers should be seen as a violin playing goat! LOL
-
Permalink Reply by JJ on
-
"and will not tell you to stop or that you must see it as I do (which is what you are doing to Elita)."
-- I have not told her that. You asked me a specific question about what I would like to happen and I answered it. I was not speaking to her at the time and I would never tell her to stop. I also haven't told anyone else (yourself included) how they should read the story. I have been speaking for myself with everything I have said. I have been explaining what I perceive to be right and what I perceive to be wrong. I don't see why you are making this so personal.
-
Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
-
Part seven
Pinkie - I feel like I have some how insulted you or you feel like I have insulted Elita and have felt the need to come to her defense.
I need to answer this in parts. I am not insulted personally by you. However, I believe you are closed mind to any thoughts beyond what you assign. You have at times been condescending to Elita’s views; but I do not believe you have done this intentionally. From what I read of Elita's comments back to you…she takes you as water off her back. She is strong enough in personal character not to allow you to offend or stop her speaking her mind no matter what you or others think. I LOVE independent people as they offer so much more than those who fall in line in a discussion. Please do not mistake that as superior, but as I meant. The Elita’s are the one’s who seek out or offer something new to ponder. They see the story in a way that allows deeper exploration and that is something I am attracted to. If the only goal is to tell others that they are right or wrong as determined by you, I find little to learn from that and yes, I do feel literature serves for a plethora of purposes. It is the most prominent expansion of how we learn; not only socially, butas a method of development of the mind in all areas. I could never support having her not speak freely so I can learn from her and develope thoughts on all levels possible.
I want to be very clear on the next part. Elita does not need my defense. She states all she wants freely no matter the response so NO this is not a personal issue on that level. This is about attempting to have you see that while to your mind some do not make sense or arewrong in thought or whatever you have decided to assigned to them….yours is not the only mind or the one that matters most. There are those who read and agree with her and are glad she does post because it allows them to see they are not alone in their assessments of the story or it allows them to THINK. So while you have said much, I have yet to read any valid reason to dismiss her views.
Now with all that said? JJ, if someone came along and challenged your rights to how you read this story or how you speak of Meyer…I would defend your right to do that just as ferociously. The problem is not for me that you two differ…it is the LACK OF RESPECT in allowing both views to stand. I so hope you understand me.
I apologize if my communication with Elita is offensive to you.
For me the only way this would be sincere is if you stopped telling her what she can and can not say unless you provide evidence she accepts as proving her wrong. Unless you do that (and it would need be to her standards of realistic and not yours) it would read offensive for me as it does when anyone does it here. I do it too but I try not to and I always tell people if I do, please point it out as I want to speak to the topics without offending someone personally. There is a difference and we should try to learn it when talking to others. After all, we are not all of the same beliefs and we are also at times hindered by language. I read Elita and know English is not her first language so I try to think through all she says and along with past readings…I do understand and often agree with her. This is one of those issues where we do agree but I also know we do not always agree BUT in those times? She has always been respectful in not telling me what I should think/believe. That matters for me and I matter to me far more than anyone’s opinion of me here does.
-
Permalink Reply by JJ on
-
Your last section in regards to my communication with Elita, I personally did find to be very offensive and therefore I am choosing to not comment on specifics that you said. For someone who is not personally offended, you certainly sound like you are. I would like to say due to the lengthy time that I have spent communicating with Elita, I know her pretty well and have great respect for her. I often tell her when I am able to agree with her and it makes me very happy to be able to do so. The times that we do not agree, we both speak to each other respectfully. If Elita has a problem with the way I communicate with her I will apologize to her. You clearly have a problem with it, and I have already apologized to you which you did not take seriously so therefore I won't do it again, but I invite you to quit reading them if they are offensive.
-
Permalink Reply by Pinkie on
-
Then I was right from the start where you made the snide comment comparing me to your children. You wrote this all not pleased with me. I was hoping that I would see signs that showed I was wrong. I have combed the last part of my comment and can not find what you found offensive and I would really welcome you pointing it out. I would hope my accolades of Elita did not offend you and I see nothing I said about you as rude! I said that I would defend anyone who challenged your rights to think as you do too! So please point out where I offended you so I will not make that mistake again and so I can apologize knowing precisely the reason I am apologizing.
I really am not offended by you JJ and if I told you why, I suspect it would hurt your feelings. Therefore, just know I really am not offended by you at all.
In regards to your relationship with Elita? Your comment merely proved my earlier point. Elita is of that character that she can differ with others without being mean. While she speaks to her views on Meyer…she stays on her points about the topic. JJ you deviate from supporting your views to telling her/me what she/we must and must not do in order to meet your criteria of having our views acceptable. I am not the kind of person who would ever allow that. I think Elita and I are just as smart and capable of defining for ourselves what is credible for ourselves. Still, I will repeat...this does not make me angry with you at all...it just shows me more of who you are.
-
Permalink Reply by JJ on
-
You are not right about the comment about my children being said as a snide comment in response to being insulted. I had not read this section yet when I made that comment and so I was not insulted or upset at all when I made the comment. As I have already tried to clarify, my comment was to explain my reasoning for not wanting to repeat myself, it had nothing to do with my value of you or your abilities to understand reason. I was not comparing you to a child.
For someone who seems to be able to understand Elita and others so well, I find it very odd that my communication confuses you or you seem to misread what I intended to say.
I'm going to copy from you the quotes that I found to either be offensive or rude. I am only do that because you have asked for that clarification .
However, I believe you are closed mind to any thoughts beyond what you assign. You have at times been condescending to Elita’s views; but I do not believe you have done this intentionally.
-- Thank you for the benefit of the doubt, but doesn't take away the insult.
She is strong enough in personal character not to allow you to offend or stop her speaking her mind no matter what you or others think. I LOVE independent people as they offer so much more than those who fall in line in a discussion.
-- So I am not strong or independent in my own thoughts.
If the only goal is to tell others that they are right or wrong as determined by you, I find little to learn from that and yes, I do feel literature serves for a plethora of purposes.
-- That is not my goal. I am simply sharing my thoughts the same that Elita has the right to do.
This is about attempting to have you see that while to your mind some do not make sense or arewrong in thought or whatever you have decided to assigned to them….yours is not the only mind or the one that matters most.
-- Why did you feel the need to share that with me? I didn't really ask for your opinion. You asked if you could give it and gave you that permission. But I feel like you are expecting me to have some epiphany about the way that I communicate.
There are those who read and agree with her and are glad she does post because it allows them to see they are not alone in their assessments of the story or it allows them to THINK.
-- That is fantastic, I am glad that people can share the same opinions with one another.
So while you have said much, I have yet to read any valid reason to dismiss her views.
-- I am not going to discuss that with you. I will discuss Elita's views with her, but not with someone else. I consider that to be rude and talking about her behind her back.
The problem is not for me that you two differ…it is the LACK OF RESPECT in allowing both views to stand. I so hope you understand me.
-- That seems pretty offensive to say that I am not respecting Elita. Thinking that the person is wrong, doesn't mean that I do not respect the person.
For me the only way this would be sincere is if...
-- First I apologize and then you slap it down and say it is not sincere. That is extremely rude and hurtful that you would be so quick to discredit what I said. I don't hand out apologies like passing out candy and so I found your response to be very very offensive.
-
Permalink Reply by Elita on
-
So...
I believe Meyer is very talented storyteller. She created Twilight world which captivates and makes us feel, enjoy, argue.
I think she was still very unexperienced writer. Eclipse is contradictional book. It is interesting because there is a tension between characters and an action outside Bellas love life. It is frustrating because of unbelievable twists and unlogical statements such as two soulmates at once or possibility to fall in love with another man and keeping passion for first one at the same time.
-
Permalink Reply by JJ on
-
Hey Elita
I wanted to apologize to you if any of the drama that surrounded my communication with you was at any time offensive. Though it has been no secret that we see things differently, but I have always had great respect for you as a person and hope that I have not hurt you during the time of our communication. If I have, then I am sorry.
© 2013 Created by Hachette Book Group.
Report an Issue | Guidelines | Report an Issue | Terms of Service
