LOVE

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Permalink Reply by Luna on March 11, 2013 at 12:57am

"To love another person is to see the face of God." -Les Miserables

I'm not very big on religion (meaning: I'm indifferent about the idea of a higher power and have yet to find an organized religion that suits me), but when I first heard this quote, it touched me. My personal interpretation of it is that love is just as great and sacred as a higher power.

"When two writers fall in love, they’ll be so full of prose and sentences and sestinas and anaphoras that they won’t know what to do with them. They’ll be sinking like ships in the current of their longing for one another.

When two writers fall in love they’ll never stop writing about each other. They’ll be immortal." -from the piece "When Two Writers Fall in Love" by Meggy R. 

I like this quote a lot as a writer myself who hopes to find another writer romantically. 

I'm... not very good at analyzing quotes. Sorry.

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 12, 2013 at 8:08pm

Thank you Luna 

Those were great quotes and thank you for saying why you liked them.  I hope that you are able to find another writer to love. :) 

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 12, 2013 at 8:10pm

Random Question: 

Can you have friendship without love? 

Sort of the reverse, is it a real friend if you do not love them? 

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Permalink Reply by Danette (DMK) on March 13, 2013 at 1:22pm

JJ...

YOU SAID:

"Can you have friendship without love? 

Sort of the reverse, is it a real friend if you do not love them?"

It's this very question that has burned deeply inside my veins...especially because of our recent in depth discussion... "If Bella really loved Jacob" emphatically declared by Meyer, the author/creator...

The whole time during our discussion(and with others, as well)....This  very question kept banging inside my head...

Also....JJ....Is FRIENDSHIP ESSENTIAL to truly be "in" love...and not just to "love" someone? What takes Friendship love...to the next tier or higher plane...beyond a friend context? Physical attraction?(as shallow as that may sound?), Commitment level? Seriously....what declares the boundary between friendship and Romantic love? or are they one in the same?

Why do I ask you this, JJ? I have personal experience with this very topic question. About Twenty-three years ago,(right before I met my husband in College)...I was DEEPLY, "IN LOVE" WITH MY MALE BEST FRIEND!!!! MATTER OF FACT....I STILL LOVE HIM, even though I've been married for 15 years/together with my husband for 20.

Is this POSSIBLE... For me to still love my best friend and yet be married, in love and committed to another man? First, you have to examine what happened with my best friend and why I am not with him? A complex question.. I rhetorically ask of myself...and you, JJ.

I LOVED MY BEST FRIEND BEYOND MYSELF....MY BEST FRIEND... WAS MY SOUL MATE....the "LOVE" I FELT FOR HIM WAS ON A DIFFERENT PLANE..intellectually and emotionally! It was ALL ENCOMPASSING.  IT WAS A DIFFERENT LOVE THAN WHAT I HAVE WITH MY HUSBAND of 20 years, whom i feel is my best friend,too. Confusing....isn't it?

I held hands with my best friend, slept in the same bed, kissed, had dinner dates/picnics with 'romantic' candles/music, he often gave me flowers and wrote me letters,/poems,little gifts "just because"(jewelry, books, music), we talked on the phone for hours at a time and most importantly we had very cerebral/existential/spiritual conversations about the meaning of "life"....we connected on every level(and beyond)....except physically. WE never were physically intimate/had sex. Only a few, brief,... "goodbye" kisses.

My friend told me he loved me, and could see his unborn children inside me. He said he loved me with as much intensity/devotion as comparable to his MOTHER!!! Strangers would often asked us how long we've been dating or EVEN MARRIED because of our symbiotic connection  that we overtly displayed or was observed by others !!! My friend said he was attracted to me....but, he couldn't be with me...after, I revealed my developed feelings for him.(actually, I loved him at first sight).

And after four years of "complete" holistic love/friendship/closeness/intensity in our relationship(without the element of sex)....he never spoke to me again. He said he loved me but couldn't be with me.( I was too Good for him.. blah..blah..whatever!). We went FROM a soul Mate connection to zero....NOTHING!(completely void of my life). REMEMBER BELLA in NEW MOON SPINNING IN THE CHAIR...IDLE, FROZEN, INERT....dead inside after Edward's sudden departure?...That was my reality, as well. LIFE STOPPED INSIDE MY HEART!!! WHEN HE LEFT... MY HEART DIED/I DIED. DEPRESSION IS A KIND WORD IN COMPARISON TO THE PAIN I FELT. 

Then I met my husband a year later. I was broken...and he put me back together. Have I completely healed 23 years later? The deep defense/protection scars still remain. Do I still love my Best friend?..."yes". I always will. Nothing has changed how I feel for him. ALL I want for him is happiness..even if that is without me in his life.

So...JJ...do you see why I am so personally conflicted to what declares "love" or "in love"? It's really not a black and white issue....love is so abstract, intangible. Humanity tries to apply/attach "worldly" definitions and conditions to the word....and in reality....that is all it becomes...is a clinical definition...unless its felt through the experiences and language of that individual.

Did Bella love Jacob? HMMMM.....? Was Bella more connected with Edward there for, "better friends" with him than Jacob? Does sex deepen that friendship/connection to a higher level/plane or is it the intial 'friendship' and 'attraction' deeply connecting the mind/body/soul that Bella felt more with Edward over Jacob? Or is Romantic connection different than ideal/soul mate love? Is sex necessary in a soul mate connection? Is sex a humanistic, physical need.... separate, but not essential to experience true "love" on a existential connection of the mind/soul?

Bella and Edward didn't physically consummate their love to the next plane/level until Bella permitted Edward  to read her mind/thoughts at the end of Breaking Dawn. She metaphorically had  mental "intercourse" with him....exchanging her mind with his...completing each other holistically...the fusion/consecration of the souls. Is that true love? Is sexual union/attraction a by-product of friendship/cerebral connection but not essential to to being "in love" with another person?

I think the element of Edward and Bella maintaining  sexual abstinence while dating...reinforces their love to be on another profound plane/level...despite their physical attraction for one another. Bella finds Edward's  beauty to be angelic, impossibly ''perfect" and God-like. Edward finds Bella's blood intoxicating like heroin, like no other....yet resists the temptation of killing her to covet her "blood" . Why? Does not partaking into their human and innate needs/desires make their love more meaningful, real and profound? Is the first essential ingredient of loving another...not about ''self" but...the needs of another?...The true testament of being "in love" with another is loss of yourself/needs, and promoting the well-being/happiness of another despite no invested interest for oneself?

Thanks for creating this post...JJ....and maybe I gave you some feedback  or concepts to ponder with this very complex, multifaceted word called...LOVE.

until next time.....I'll be anticipating your amazing thoughts/insight.

Danette

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Permalink Reply by Lorece on March 13, 2013 at 4:54pm

On a side note: Thank you Danette for sharing your incredibly personal insights!  I felt touched and heart-broken reading your words.  It is so hard to strictly define something so seemingly intangible, isn't it?  Like they always say: "how do you know when you're in love?  I don't know, you just know!"

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 13, 2013 at 6:08pm

First off thank you for sharing such a personal story with me.  There was a lot there that I know I could relate to. 

I also had a male best friend that grew up together, starting back in diapers.  I moved away when I was 9 to camp that my parents started and yet me and my friend remained very close.  Moving away made it so that when we did see each other we wanted to spend as much time together as possible.  We went through our pre-teen years and would roll our eyes and it being a rule that we had to keep the bedroom door open anytime we were together.  Though we would hold hands sometimes and knew each other well enough to have complete conversations with out eyes without having to actually say a word, and I knew that we loved each other I do not believe it was ever romantic.  We went through our teen years and his parents got a divorce and his mother started dating again.  I think he wanted to be dating too and I was the obvious choice.  I can remember sitting on the couch with him and for the first time it being awkward to hold his hand because it seemed like we were trying to make it be something that it wasn't. Now, 15 years later we are both happily married to other people and still see each other randomly. 

I have been married for 11 years and I married by best friend.  We worked together at a summer camp before our senior year in high school.  I had a personal rule that I wouldn't date anyone while camp was going on, because I didn't want some summer romance and be heart broken once the summer was over and he went back home.  After the summer ended, he continued to drive 90 miles to work minimum wage at the camp, clearly it wasn't the job that he was coming to see ;)  In October we started officially dating through this conversation "We are dating" "yeah".  That was it.  After high school we went to college and after our freshman of college we got married. 

-- Am I in love with my husband?  ABSOLUTELY!!  When did I fall in love with my husband?  I have no idea.  If I try to pinpoint a specific time, I cannot do it.   

- Was it the day we got married? (we did not have sex until after we were married) No I think it was most likely before that.

- Was it the day that we got engaged and he kissed me for the first time? No I think it was most likely before that

- Was it the day he told me he loved me for the first time?  Well... I didn't exactly have a great response to that...  (I said "How can you say that?" - wow... way to ruin that moment, lol)  Despite my steller response, lol, does that mean that I didn't love him then?  Possibly 

- Was it the first summer that we spent together as friends who would stay up until 2am or later talking to each other?  Possibly. 

-- The truth is, I believe that it is ALL of it!  I was falling in love with him that summer as I learned more and more about him.  I was falling in love with him as we started dating under the supervision of our parents in high school and continued to fall in love with him while in college.  I was falling in love with him on our honeymoon after getting married.  I was falling in love with him when I gave birth to our children.  And I continue to fall in love with with him every single day. 

**** 

Also....JJ....Is FRIENDSHIP ESSENTIAL to truly be "in" love...and not just to "love" someone? What takes Friendship love...to the next tier or higher plane...beyond a friend context?

-- I think that both of these questions are very personal and unique to each individual.  Willard F. Harley, Jr, Ph D. is a clinical psychologist and marriage counselor.  He wrote a book called His Needs and Her Needs, which identify 5 basic needs that most men have and 5 basic needs that most women have.  One of the basic needs given to men is for her to be his "playmate" meaning that men want to have a woman that will play with him and be his friend.  The other needs are affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, attractive spouse, financial support, domestic support, family commitment, and admiration.  While clearly some of these should only be found in a marriage or committed relationship, some easily would be fullfilled through friendship.  So therefore, I do believe that friendship is very, very important to a successful romantic relationship. 

Is this POSSIBLE... For me to still love my best friend and yet be married, in love and committed to another man? First, you have to examine what happened with my best friend and why I am not with him? A complex question.. I rhetorically ask of myself...and you, JJ.

-- Yes it is possible and let me see if I can offer an explanation to why, using a concept that is in Dr. Harley's book.  It is called a "love bank".  He believes that everyone that we come in contact with is given a love bank.  Some love banks are very short lived, such as a waitress or waitor.  We can have a great dining experience with a fantastic waitress and the love bank is small because the contact we had with her was short, but it was a positive experience.  Everyone has had that horrible waitress and you walk away never wanting to go into that restaurant again, even if it was great food.  We have friendships with people and the longer we have known this person the bigger their bank is.  Basically good things add value to the love bank and bad things take away value to the love bank. 

With a relationship there are good things and bad things that happen all the time and as long as the good are more often than the bad, then we say that is a happy and successful relationship.  If the bad is more often than the good then the relationship is not successful.  If it is a dating relationship then they break up or a married couple gets a divorce.  (However that doesn't have to happen, the relationship can be fixed it just takes work.) 

Sometimes someone can have a have a really, really large love bank, but something happens and contact is suddenly stopped.  (if the person moves away, if they die, or simply break contact for some reason)  When this happens, because there are no "bad things" that are happening, it can take a very, very long time for that love bank to ever come down.  So it can make sense to not have seen someone and yet to still love them. 

Hopefully that concept made sense, if not let me know. 

So...JJ...do you see why I am so personally conflicted to what declares "love" or "in love"? It's really not a black and white issue....love is so abstract, intangible.

-- Yes it is extremely complicated and not near as simple.  However, sometimes love is very simple. I know of a married couple where he proposed on the second date and they were married less than a month after meeting each other.  Something for them clicked and worked.  If my husband had tried to propose to me on our second date I would have thought he had lost his mind, lol. 

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 13, 2013 at 6:10pm

Did Bella love Jacob? HMMMM.....? Was Bella more connected with Edward there for, "better friends" with him than Jacob?

-- For me personally, it is friendship that is missing in Edward and Bella's relationship.  I personally do not see it.  I am not saying that Edward and Bella do not love each other because I do not think that is true, but I do not see a friendship. 

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 14, 2013 at 12:50am

I should probably modify my own statement.  To say there is no friendship between Edward and Bella is not true, they do have several moments of bonding friendship where they learn more and more about each other.  

However with that said, I see a stronger friendship between Jacob and Bella than between Edward and Bella.  I cannot remember the exact quote in BD but a time when Edward mentions that Jacob knows Bella better than him.  It is when Edward is trying to get Jacob to convince Bella to terminate her pregnancy.  Edward admits that Jacob has a connection to Bella that Edward does not. 

I decided to look it up because I didn't feel like I was summarizing it very well.  

BD pg 177-178  (Edward speaking to Jacob)

"You know her well," He whispered. "How quickly you see... I didn't see. Not in time. She wouldn't talk to me on the way home, not really. I thought she was frightened - that would be natural. I thought she wan angry with me for putting her through this, for endangering her life. Again. I never imagined what she was really thinking, what she was resolving. Not until my family met us at the airport and she ran right into Rosalie's arms. Rosalie's! And then I heard what Rosalie was thinking. I didn't understand until I heard that. Yet 'you' understand after one second..." He half-sighed, half-groaned. 

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Permalink Reply by Lorece on March 14, 2013 at 1:37am

Argghh I HATE this moment JJ!!!  Thanks for bringing it up, LOL...I wanted to slap Edward during this conversation.  Of course he would jump to the wrong conclusions, he ALWAYS does when Bella is potentially in danger!!!

Edward couldn't "see" much past his own negative perception of himself that constantly clouded his judgment.  Edward and Bella always elevated one another in each of their minds which also skewed their perception...Jacob and Bella seemed to take each other as is at more of a face value so I can see where you are coming from.

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 14, 2013 at 9:29am

Anytime, :D  

Honestly I hate this moment too.  Oh Edward...   I understand wanting to do 'anything' to save the woman that you love but jeez... he crosses a line.  

I agree with you, it makes sense for Edward to react the way he does and I think that you nailed it that Edward and Bella evaluate each other through their own perspective of how they think they other feels.  Which is why Bella's epiphany about Edward at the end of NM is so important for her character.

While on that topic, where do you think Edward's epiphany is about Bella's love for him?  The obvious answer is the very end of BD when Bella was able to open her mind to him and let him really 'see'.  But is that really it?  Did Edward really not understand Bella until that moment?  

If the answer is 'that' is the moment for Edward (his epiphany) that seems really sad to me that Edward couldn't figure her out without the help of his gift.  (cheater, lol) 

 

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Permalink Reply by Lorece on March 25, 2013 at 9:25pm

I think Edward has a similar epiphany in New Moon about Bella's love.  Prior to her saving him in Italy, he really believed that she would be able to move on and forget about him.  Seeing her struggle and witnessing her despair and realizing that she still wanted to be with him sealed the deal for both in my opinion.  Of course they still have things to discover about one another in Eclipse and Breaking Dawn but I think the end of New Moon was the true turning point that caused both Edward and Bella to see how much they meant to one another.

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Permalink Reply by JJ on March 26, 2013 at 6:04pm

I'm not saying that you are wrong about Edward's epiphany in NM because I do believe that Edward going through the experience of thinking Bella was dead was life altering for Edward.  I know that I struggle to understand Edward and what he does and why he does it. 

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