Now it seems ironic after the other thread where we engaged, that I did not ask questions here earlier on because I did not want to seem to be challenging you. While I am not challenging you: still, I would like to ask you if you meant to come off as general as you did about suicides?
Also I wanted to be clear that for you if you do not tell your partner the truth, you do not trust them and therefore you are immature?
Finally in your passage, exactly what is it in that you found immature and why?
Again, not challenging...just wanting clearer understanding of your points.
No hard feelings about the other thread, the repeated challenges seemed ironic but they were thought provoking and interesting.
No I wouldn't mean to appear general about a topic as complex as suicide. There is nothing general about it. Suicide is the path taken from someone who either sees no other alternative or the potential alternatives are too painful to accept as an option. So my heart goes out to that individual, however I still feel that suicide is an immature response to a bad situation.
Yes, to tell a lie rather than the truth to your partner indicates a lack of trust in them. You don't trust them to be able to handle the truth so a lie is told that seems to be more on level with what the other person can handle. Trust takes maturity and therefore the lack of trust shows immaturity.
In the passage, obviously name calling (pup, real man, etc.) is quite immature. There is also the need for Edward to tell Jacob that he is fighting for Bella. There is no reason to fight for something you already have. Also Edward admitting that he will NOT fight fair is also an example of immaturity. I think you could find this exact scene played out in most elementary or junior high school age children (maybe not between a vampire and werewolf, but between two boys over a girl or even a fellow friend.). Everything about that particular scene screams immaturity by all three major characters, Bella, Edward, and Jacob.
So my heart goes out to that individual, however I still feel that suicide is an immature response to a bad situation.
I am still not clear on your views. Perhaps, I can reword my question? Are all suicides immature choices? What makes it an immature choice for you?
It reads like you associate lack of trust in someone as the only reason for lies to you partner. Is that correct? Is that the only reason that people lie to their partners? Or are there exceptions? And if so, what would you find as exceptions?
Edward uses the word "pup" and you called it name calling. Why is that name calling for you? To my understanding, the term "pup" means young wolf. Jacob is indeed a young wolf so while I do see it as cunning, I am not clear on why is it immature. Would you explain?
Do you find any other characters immature like Edward?
Lastly, when this conversation about fighting for her takes place,do you agree that the exchange includes Edward telling us things he is hearing in Jacob's thoughts? Does that influence you here at all and if so...how? If not...why not?
I would rather not go any further on the topic of suicide due to it being a very sensitive subject. To an individual who has experienced suicide from a loved one my opinions of suicide would be offensive so out of respect for those individuals I do not want to add any further details on this particular topic.
Lack of trust may not be the only reason, but it is still included in the reason. In this situation Edward didn't want to hurt Bella so out of love for her he pushed her away. However he did so through a lie, which indicates that Edward believed that Bella would not handle the truth well.
Yes, Edward using the word pup is name calling. It is emphasizing Jacob's lack of maturity in an also immature way. Also I believe that Jacob grimaces after the exchange so it is clear that he found the remark insulting. The same would be true of Jacob calling Edward a bloodsucker. Yes it is true, but it is also derogatory and immature.
As I stated above all three characters, Bella, Edward, and Jacob, have similar moments of immaturity. Bella seems the most inconsistent with her maturity. It comes and goes at random times. As stated I believe Edward starts off the most mature and becomes more immature, due to Bella's influence he becomes more "human" which leads to immaturity. Jacob's maturity follows his age. He is rather young and innocent, then he is immature and kinda annoying, and by Breaking Dawn becomes mature.
I don't think Edward's ability to read Jacob's mind affects his maturity level in this particular situation because I have already stated that Jacob is equally immature in this moment as Edward is.
Okay then this is what you believe:
Anyone who attempts or commits suicide is immature, end of discussion. There is nothing more that can be added to this that would change this fact so you will not go into further details out of respect of those who could be affected/effected by reading this as nothing further would matter to the fact that this much is solid in fact for you.
Terminology that accurately defines who/what you are is name calling and name calling is always immature in your view.
Lack of trust is always a part of why people lie to their partners. And although Edward lied in your view out of love for Bella, because he felt concern that she could not handle the truth, the choice is in your view still immature.
Bella, Edward and Jacob. These three make up your immature list for the story.
So whatever Edward may be hearing from Jacob thoughts does not make any difference in what is said and how. Edward's comments can only be read as immature in you view....based on what you define as immature that is.
Have I understood you correctly and completely? If so...thank you for the explanation. If not, I will read your corrections to what I thought you said if you desire to make those corrections available.
I find it very strange that you are telling me what I believe, I haven't had that happen before and not sure how to reply.
My thoughts on suicide were left incomplete and I gave the reason I decided to not continue on that example. So it seems disrespectful for you to continue when I thought I made it clear that I would not. It is my fault that you came to an improper conclusion based on my lack of detail given. So your assessment of my views on suicide is not understood, but that is my fault due to not going into further detail.
There are lots of examples of correctly defining someone and it still being name calling. I could give those examples but most likely they aren't allowed on this site, and if they are allowed then they shouldn't be. I would say anyone who uses these terms are immature at best and mean and cruel at worst.
When telling someone else what they believe it is probably not a good idea to use words such as "always", "never", etc. since most of the time these extreme words are not accurately used.
I did not give an exhaustive list of immature characters. You asked if I found other characters immature, which seemed odd since I had already acknowledged Bella and Jacob's immaturity, it would seem obvious that Edward is not the only immature character. And no, these three characters are not the only characters.
I really doubt that I am the only person who finds Edward immature in the example given. So I doubt "Edward's comments can only be read as immature in you view" since there are other people who hold the same opinion of Edward's immaturity.
By the way, Twilight is all about Bellas&Edwards love. It means, the fact that Bella would pick up the phone would not change anything.
(Well, she would not go to Italy, then.)
Hello, everyone. I've skimmed through the five pages and have a couple views to share as well.
First, had Bella answered the phone, it definitely would have changed things. Edward would have been filled with relief and not need to go to the Volturi. So Alice and Bella wouldn't go to Italy and Aro wouldn't meet Bella or been privy to her possible potential and gifts. Even if Irina had reported the vampire/human relationship someone else would have been sent to take care of the situation. I am certain that should Felix and Dmitri been sent the Cullens could have circumvented the meeting.
Second, Edward (darling Edward) is a bit arrogant. He did not call Alice because he believed that Alice was following his instructions in not watching Bella. He had no clue she couldn't really stop. Why didn't she see Rose calling Edward? It was a spur of the moment decision on Rosalie's part and I think Alice was still blinded by Jacob's involvement, but this gets into a very dicey conversation about holes surrounding Alice's gift (I really don't want to go there).
Third, if Edward had decided to call Alice and found she was in Forks with Bella...by that time Alice was caught up on the whole Victoria situation she would have told Edward Victoria's plans and he would have brought the entire family back to dispatch her poste haste.
Fourth, Edward couldn't stay away...he was going to come back anyway. I completely believe that (just consider the outtake about the scholarship, since we are being hypothetical...essentially that happened, but was removed). We can't bring in the Eclipse "choice" into play because that is future Edward not current Edward. He would not know Jacob was at the house protecting her after the cliff diving incident. When he arrives the tension between the two will escalate after further revelations.
Other things will change as well. If Bella doesn't need to go to Italy to save Edward, she would not disappear for three days and would not be grounded and Jacob may not turn in her motorcycle. Plus if Edward comes back to take care of Victoria then the whole newborn army wouldn't happen and the Volturi wouldn't have need to come to the Olympic Peninsula. And so on and so on...
I am certain that there are holes in my theories too. This is currently how I see things going if Bella answers the phone. My theories could change tomorrow as they are just theories.
I LOVED THIS! I may not agree with it all but I love how you thought it through and willfully shared your process. For me, that is much more relevant than the conclusion because it allows us to learn your thoughts about the book using what you know about the books! As it is just a hypothetical, the answers should not matter! I also agree that views can change based on new thoughts and that is part of the fun with a hypothetical.
The one that I differed most from you is the last one? Victoria never knew the Cullens left so would she not make the army still? I do not know the time required for making enough for an army, but I would think as we are told they fight and kill one another more often than not, she would had started long enough to train Riley to be her version of Jasper?