Bella to Mike: Quote, "I am writing my English term paper on the topic: 'Was Shakespeare's portrayal of women misogynistic?"

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Permalink Reply by KB Wolfe on September 2, 2010 at 8:44pm

1. I think Bella chose this topic because she hates to seem like a weak frail young woman. She gets deffensive when she is treated as such. I think in her opinion Shakespeare is one of those men that treat women as such.

2. Based on Shakespeare's Sonnets, (not so much his plays) I think his portrayal of women was obviously misogynistic. That's one of the reason's I was never a big fan of Shakespeare. Though my English teacher was and she wanted to shove Shakespeare down our throats. XD My biggest example of this is Sonnet 130:

"My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask'd, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare"

Permalink Reply by manuel castro on September 2, 2010 at 10:18pm

It's been a while since I've thought of shakespeare lets see how I do. It tells me that Bella is doesn't like women portrayed as weak or of no significant ( you know like in the middle ages no rights or voice). She sees this in the bards play and decide to proof that Shakespeare was no different from any other men of his day or present like Edward when he gets over protective of her in eclipse. Bella is very stronge willed and on like Juliet (Giulietta) Bella wont let herself be treated in such manner or hear anybody say things that would put her or any female for that matter in a dimining way ( excuse my spelling). It also says that Bella is aware of the person she is and won't let anyone diminish that from anybody including Edwars or Jacob. Shakespeare is in my opinion misogynistic in some of his plays he demonstrates it, I think is the way they treated women at the time also being forced to marry someone who you don't love was probably a factor also.

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 5, 2010 at 7:41am

Bear Photo Title, A future CEO:

Dear Manuel,
You hit on a great point.Bella is a very gifted young woman. And she knows that, though our society has made great strides she will continualy have to face the residual prejustice against her sex.
I have always been attracted to gifted women. And it has been infuriating to see, the women that I have dated, fight one "old boys group" after another. And so as you say it would be only natural for Bella to look for signs of biases against women in one of the two great creators of English literature. (Shakespear and Tynsdale, the author of over 80% of the King James Bible)
Thanks for bringing up another great point.
Your friend, Doc B
PS: Smart women turn me on.

Photo title: Trouble for the working Bear

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 20, 2010 at 12:06pm

From Buffy:

Since he left us no letters, diaries, or other personal papers to tell us what he thought, we really have almost no information on Shakespeare's personal life or feelings about different subjects other than what we can deduce from his plays and poems. And since they were works of fiction and drama, we can't really deduce his own beliefs simply based on the stories he wrote.

I don't think that we can classify Shakespeare as either a misogynist or a feminist. Living when he did, he wouldn't have understood those words as they are meant today. Catagories like that are useless when discussing him and his work. But my own opinion is that Shakespeare was a far from a misogynist as you could possibly find in Elizabethan and Jacobean England.

Remember, we have to consider Shakespeare in the context of the times he lived in. At that time women were generally considered to be the property of their fathers, husbands and rulers. They were married off for wealth, property, power and position without their permission or much consideration for their feelings. Certainly parents loved their daughters, but the customs were that they were expected to learn how to run a household, sew, perhaps music and dance (depending on their position), and generally please a husband and deal with society. Generally they were not educationed beyond that, most did not read or write and were not expected to. Women who rebelled from these restrictions were considered unusual, often unladylike, sometimes unmarriageable. Of course there were exceptions - Queen Elizabeth I being the major one - but they were few. Even in Shakespeare's own profession, women were not permitted, by law, to perform on the public stage.

And yet, in his plays, Shakespeare wrote of many, many female character who were intelligent, independent, witty, strong, determined, and very much outside the norm. He presented then not as just weak, pretty, helpless heroines to be saved by their men, but as strong, dynamic leading ladies in their own right, often getting the better of their men. Think of Beatrice in "Much Ado About Nothing", Katherine in "The Taming of the Shrew", Rosalind in "As You Like It", Viola in "Twelfth Night", Gertrude in "Hamlet", Cordelia and her sisters in "King Lear", Lady Macbeth, Portia in "The Merchant of Venice" and many more. Even Juliet, the ultimate romantic heroine, was not, even at the tender age of 14, just a fragile pretty face - between her and Romeo, she was the strong, stable partner, he the impulsive, suggestible one.

Shakespeare had a view of women far ahead of his time. But he did write of his times - and the attitude of the other characters in his plays certainly reflected that - but the way he presented his women said as clearly as was possible that HE saw them very differently from the way most people did. He gave them presence and power and independence in a time when most women had none of those things - at least in the outside world. He wrote REAL women, not just the idealized, fanciful image of a lovely, fragile, cosseted possessions that were the stuff of drama to that point. He wrote multi-layered characters with complex emotional lives, motivations and thought processes - and his women were no less so than his men.

And at that time, that was an amazing accomplishment.

Now, regarding Bella's choice to write a paper on this subject? She either recognized the above as I just stated it or she was not as bright a student as Meyer wants us to believe that she is.


Dear Buffy,

I agree with your powerful point that we have to be careful and not let relativism cloud our opinions. (relativism (as you know) is judging others, not by the standards of their times and cultures, but rather by our own)
You say: "My own opinion is that Shakespeare was as far from a misogynist as you could possibly find in Elizabethan and Jacobean England." First, I am certain that you know much more about this topic than I do. But from what I do know, I would agree with you entirely.You also say: "And yet, in his plays, Shakespeare wrote of many, many female character who were intelligent, independent, witty, strong, determined, and very much outside the norm. Yes, yes, yes! He created so many fascinating talented women. (And thank God that Henry and Jane saw that Elizabeth (a Shakespearean patron) was given a world class education.)
You did a much better job of expressing my opinions than I could.
When I first read what Bella had choosen to write her term paper on I was disappointed because I presumed that she was going to argue the question in the affirmative. Then I decided that she had to have chosen to attack the question from the negative.
If she did feel that Shakespear was a mysogenist, like you and I, I think that Carlisle and Edward would have been disappointed as well.
As always, thanks for sharing.
Yours, Doc

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