Did Alice love the "Older Vampire." The one who saved her life?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by ♥change of heart♥ on September 18, 2010 at 9:45pm

Good day, Doc.

Since Alice doesn't remember anything from her past and James' dead, all we have are assumptions.
I think, Alice have no feelings for that "old vampire" on the other hand, maybe it's the "old vampire" that loves her.
For a vampire to keep a human alive, that vampire must've been a "vegetarian" too like the Cullens.
And I can assume that the "old vampire" really loves her, he's been with Alice for years and for sure he don't have any plans of transforming her, he wants her to stay human like Edward to Bella. But James came, and the only thing to keep her safe ( for all we knew about James, he will not leave his target) is to become a vampire.

I wonder what really happens??.....

♥change of heart♥

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 19, 2010 at 10:36am

Good Day Change of Heart,
What great points, you make. You point out; Why didn't he feed on Alice? Was he a vegetarian (a very insightful question) He provably loved her. (I agree, I think that he did.) We presume that when they say "old" they mean that his body was old (like Marcus) when he was changed. But could he have a body like Edward's or Jasper's and just be old in "Vampire years" One human year equals seven dog years. Does one Vampire year equal a thousand human years? And what if he was "old" like Carlisle. Would that exclude their forming a romantic bond?

So many questions. When Esme fell out of the tree at 16 she fell in love with Carlisle. And as you say the only things we have to go on, logic and provability. Circumstantial evidence. Some people would argue that though Alice is "DELIGHTFUL" she is some what quixotic. Would a more mature person love her more or less for that? And the Edward seemed to have no reservations about planning on carrying on a "Full Romantic" relationship with Bella when she was a senior citizen. Do you think that age means the same thing to vampires that it does to humans?

Permalink Reply by Robyn on September 18, 2010 at 11:35pm

i think his emotions, especialy with how emotionallychaged he is, just have been at war with himself. On many different levels. We all know how protective he felt about woman andchldren, and yet insstintively he must have halve he as his mate. In the end, only Alice could calm him and persuade him they where meant to bel To become ahealng force in hil lfe. rue love, mate hood, ia just indenieable. And let's face it, the story would be sorely lacking without the! I lofe Alce and jasper!

Permalink Reply by Robyn on September 18, 2010 at 11:39pm

Yes, I think they loved eachother, although for Alice in a parternal way, and the older vampire in alightly different ( and alright creepy)but protective way! Alice so depserately needed and adult'slove an acceptance, and she found it in the other vampire

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 19, 2010 at 11:47am

Dear Robyn,

I think that you make an excellent point. Did Carlisle like Bella. I don't think so. I think that he adored her. She was his "God sent" daughter. She was loving, intellectually gifted and as he said "full of Grace." JUST EXACTLY AS HE WAS. CC to BS: "I especially appreciate the graceful you have accepted my family." (PP)

Did Bella love Carlisle? You bet she did. Bella, after Jacob forced himself on her, and after Charlie had said "That-a-boy." Bella,Q: "I need to see Carlisle."

If Carlisle had been alone and had, had a patient like Bella one that he could have developed a careing relationship with, would he have been willing to put his life at risk to save her? I think so. A big part of the question might revolve around how, Bella and Alice both have the ability to accept others. Remember how Bella emotionaly embraced Esme. And how Alice came to love Charlie.

Which brings up an interesting question. Alice and Charlie came to love each other as friends. Is it possable that Alice just naturaly feels comfortable with old men like Charlie and Carlisle. If that was the case maybe she could have romantically loved an old man. Just a thought.

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 19, 2010 at 11:02am

From Shayna:

Since Alice cannot remember any portion of her human life, Alice probably wouldn't be able to recall if she loved him or not. But in my opinion, I'd have to say that her feelings would be totally platonic. The only information that is provided about the "older vampire" that changed her is that he was very fond of Alice. I never interpreted it as anything more than a friendship, if that. If Alice was quote unquote "normal" besides the fact that her visions sent her to a mental asylum, her instincts must have repelled her away from him, forcing the vampire to simply care for her. I don't see them as having a close relationship.

Dear Shayna,

What a great point. Alice has lost all of her memories from her human life.
Do you think that "The old Vampire" had a gift that allowed him to give her amnesia? Or could she have hit her head and had traumatic amnesia. A type which might lead to a return of her memory? Or do you think that it is more likely that she has "traumatic mental amnesia?"
I missed out on the fond analogy. Fond would certainly imply an entirely different relationship. IE: "Carlisle was fond of Ms. X. And appreciated the fact that she invited Esme to the garden party."
You make another excellent point by reminding us of the natural revultion humans experience when being in close proximity to a vampire.
Excellent points. You may very well have closed the case on the debate.
Points well made. Thank you for sharing, Doc

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 19, 2010 at 12:57pm

From Dantez Girl,

From Dantez Girl,

As people have already mentioned if Alice was normal and it was just her visions then I would like to know on what grounds was she accepted into the asylum.
If Alice did have some other mental affliction (Again she appears cured after the conversion) depending on what it was she could of possibly had some romantic feelings towards the older Vampire.
Otherwise Alice probably had a platonic relationship with the Vampire I imagine being stuck in a crazy house when you really aren't crazy, having someone sane to talk to can help.
I think it is also possible that the Vampire could have had romantic feelings for Alice although we don't know how long she was there for I'm sure he would have made his feelings clear? Especially if Alice was normal. So I reckon platonic on his part as well Guys and Gals can be friends you know :)

What I really want to know is . . . Why was James there in the first place?

Dear Dantez Girl,

You make multiple excellent points. (as usual) I think that a key to help us fully understand this question may be in our understanding of: "Vampiric Post Conversion Psycic Transformations States."
Bella said "After I changed, I was the same as I was before. Edward was pretty much the same also, although his bout as a public executioner, caused him to enter a "situational depressive state for 70 years. And it also left him feeling like a monster. (So we should presume that most all vampires are the "people they were before they were converted" all though constant killings tend to make most (not the Cullen) less caring and more pathological. (Not unlike the psyco-pathologic deterioration that Nazie SS guards underwent at concentration camps. Their mental deteriorations were so sever that Himler had to change the protocall and have inmate "Capos" do the killing. And then every few weeks, have all the Capos killed. And get a new bunch. Vampires may not be sensitive to the agony they inflict, but that doesn't mean that subconsciously they aren't aware of the agony they inflict.

If that is the case (which I think it is) then the vampire we get, (through transformation) is pretty much like the human we started with. Especially if they are vegetarians. So we know what Alice was like before her transformation. The same delightful woman she was after her transformation. The same delightful woman who delighted in sharing with Charlie Swan.

You ask a vital question. Why was James there. I believed that he had a special desire for Alice's blood. Like Edward had for Bella, and Emmett had for the "apple orchard" girl. James to Bella. Quote: "He (the "old vampire") ruined her flavor by transforming her. Too bad Edward was too much of a weakling to have convert you."(pp)

Question: With all of the Cullen's help how long did it take James to find Bella. 48 hours? So how long would it take him to find Alice? Especially if she had been registered into an insane asylum 20 miles from her home. (An hour maybe)


I'll bet that James periodically dropped by the insane asylum and used it as a "blood donner site,." with or without the aid of the "Old Vampire," And that he got a whiff of Alice, and then went ballistic. And that "The Old Vampire took steps to protect her.

Now a counterpoint question for you. Why did Alice's Parents allow her to be institutionalized?

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 19, 2010 at 2:09pm

From Bella Rose:

Hi Doc!

" La Tua Cantante. "or the blood singer
I think the old vampire and James found alice blood appealing more than anyone else inside the asylum.

I want to share this article,i don't know if this is true or i just passed reading this part.


Personal history: Alice was held in a mental asylum because of her ability to have visions. There she was the favorite of a vampire who worked in the building. James, a hunter vampire, took the challenge of hunting her simply because another vampire desired her. Once it was clear to him that James was after her, he, the vampire who worked in the asylum, freed Alice and changed her before James could kill her. James killed the other vampire instead. She had no memory of these events and was left to find her own way. (TW22)


The old vampire is working inside the asylum so it means that this vampire is similar to the cullens who can resist the smell of human blood or maybe the old vampire is just like James who prefer hunting inside the asylum ,for the reason that no one ever bothers to check this people and their families never cared for them anymore ...this is such a comforting place for the vampire to hunt ...imagine a cage with a male and female lion who is surrounded by small animals, an easy access for feeding,isn't it?
anyway,this is just my opinion because like everyone else i also don't know the real reason ...nobody knows the truth about alice cullen.
maybe ,the "old vampire" likes Alice very much ,he feels attracted by her beauty ...like Edward ,alice creator is having a second thought if he is going to change alice into a vampire or not but when he learned that james will gonna hurt alice ,the old vampire doesn't have any other choice but to transformed alice.unfortunately,he died because of james.I don't have any idea if alice have any emotional attachment with the "old vampire" and no idea at all if alice already saw his face.

Dear Bella Rose:

You make an excellent point. If the "Older Vampire" was working inside the asylum he must have been able to control his "thirst" to some extent. Or maybe he supplemented his diet with blood that he had transferred from the patients into transfusion bags.(No vampire venom ever had to come in contact with the patients.)

If I was a vampire (which I am presently not, and never have been) and I lacked the self control to be a vegetarian. I would work in a neurological head injury unit. Where the patients were unconscious. A person can "donate" a unit of blood per month with out any harmful effects. (Some people have literally donated hundreds of units.) And then use my "super vampiric powers" (like Carlisle) to see that they get superb care.

You are right, sadly all over the world, mental patients and the elderly seem to be the most neglected. An insane asylum would be a perfect place for a "Vampire" to work. As I said, he or they didn't even need to kill patients, they could just harvest their blood.
Life as a "nomad" vampire must be a lonely lonely life. The old vampire's getting to know someone with Alice's Joy de' vee (Joy of life) must have been a delight for him. I can almost see the two of them sharing, and laughing over a cup of coffee. The way that Alice use to with Charlie. The old vampire must have TREASURED those moments. Which could easily have been more than enough reason for him mto have risked his life saving her.
Thanks (as always) for sharing with us, Your friend Doc

Permalink Reply by manuel castro on September 19, 2010 at 9:34pm

Alice was placed and kept in dark place, in which she still being human forget who she was like some people do when placed in four walls and their freedom partially taken away just for her gift of sight. She couldn't loved him if she didn't even remember who she was and why she was placed their. Since she has the gift of sight she would've known her future mate already and who she was going to be. She maybe loved him as a friend and no more. I've think in a place like that ones looses one self. Even thou he loved her and didn't drain her I think he was aware of her gift and as such wanted to convert her for her gift and companionship.

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 20, 2010 at 10:56am

From Rose Bellla,

in New Moon she does some research on this, finding out her real name is Mary Alice Brandon, and that she has a living neice somewhere. Her parents committed her to an asylum as a result of her premonitions, and found her gravestone, which marks the date of her death as the same day she was committed. There's some more research, but this is most of the important parts.
So like dantez Girl has said ,maybe Alice didn't stay too long in the asylum .I'm also thinking why she can't remember anything if she just stayed for not more that 24 hours in an asylum,this part is quiet' intriguing.
A dark room ,or electric shock can cause "trauma" in a person but not "memory lose".If ever she got any mental problems before she was confined in the mental hospital ,the "venom " which is said to be curable would had healed alice now ,and she would probably remember everything.Because no vampire written in the book has forgotten their human life except for Alice,and i don't know why.Even Carlisle who is the oldest in the Family was able to recall her human life.
Did Alice got so hurt and still feel very painful ?thats why she is trying her best to forget her own identity?
Since ,the 1st very first time i read the book ..alice being unaware of her life really made me curious.
Doc, did you have any answer for this or even theory?

rosabella


Dear Bella Rose

Wonderful questions to explore.

1. How could Alice's admission, and grave stone dates be the same WITHOUT some collusion between the Asylum's Administration and her parents. What could have happened. What do you think? And what happened to her parents?

2. WHY IS ALICE THE ONLY VAMPIRE IN HISTORY not to have ANY memory of her human life? What do you think?

Dear Rose,
I have a theory as to the second question. And I will share it with you IF you guys will share yours.

I think that YOU (Bella Rose) hit the nail on the head. To me it is Alice that is suppressing her memory. Her memory loss (to me) is a symptom of "post traumatic shock." Some thing so terrible happened, that it is her own conscious mind that is suppressing her memory. Did something happen to her? Or was it something that happened to the "Older Vampire?" As physicians we see patients who refuse to remember incidents where a family member sexually abused them. Both the patients (inappropriate) shame, and their love for their family prevents them from remembering the incident. Then sometimes, many years later, they remember the incidents in detail. The problem is that while their conscious minds don't remember what happened, their unconscious minds do. And not being able to resolve their anger and their unjustified guilt leads to anxiety and depression.
Laurent might have given us a hint as to what happened. Laurent to Bella, Q: "Victoria has been planning a long and miserable death for you." (PP) Victoria had been turned and trained by James. And was the less evil of the two. God (and I think Alice) only knows how the "Older Vampire" suffered.
In the new best selling book "A History Of The Third Reich" there is a sad story that, I think, tells us both about Vampire psychology and memory suppression. It contains the story of an SS officer, who was mentally broken while performing his duties. Later as his memory returned, he remembered that he had been following his orders, and was killing several thousand people. (for being Jewish) As he was watching the executions a beautiful little blond Jewish girl, about four years of age, broke out of the line of those patiently waiting to be killed. The girl was terrified, so she ran to him, took his hand and put her arm around him. He later remembered that as he watched his assistant tear the child away to be murdered that, at that moment, he felt both his soul and mind break.
His mind simply couldn't stand to remember what he had participated in. And a part of his humanity died at the same moment. I think that this story might help us answer the questions as to why Alice can't remember her past, why (pre-Alice) Jasper had decided to commit suicide, and why Edward saw himself as a monster.
As to the question as to why Alice's admission date and grave stone date are the same I haven't an answer. But I look forward to learning yours.
Yours, Doc

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 26, 2010 at 8:53am

from Rose Bella:

Dear Doc!
Yes ,i agree with you,maybe Alice had suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. But i'm just wondering ,...PTSD people recover within six months, while others suffer much longer but not very long like Alice.When she was transformed into a Vampire she has the venom in her whole system that might bring her memory lost back again .Or maybe Alice Remembered it all ???does she?
PTSD victim may avoid people, places, thoughts, or situations that may remind him or her of the trauma. This can lead to feelings of detachment and isolation from family and friends, as well as a loss of interest in activities that the person once enjoyed.In my opinion Alice already knew what she is and she just kept on fighting this memories through making a new and different kind of life like ,shopping,being restless ,carefree and happy.Because she's not happy with her past life ,Alice has this character in the book of making people happy..,ready to give a help maybe , because she never experienced being "love" by her old family..maybe a human Alice was not a very cheerful Alice like what is described in the book.I see Alice as a lonely teen age girl and isolated in a real teen age life, in 1900's,most of the mentally ill families is paying the secrecy and discretion, and private ‘madhouses" for their family member who is suffering from insanity because they were ashamed that one of their family members is "lunatic"..i think this has the same situation with Alice.Maybe the date of his admission and death is a "forgery",she was totally forgotten by her family and let the asylum decide what is good for her.

Doc ,i want to show you something :
See the Grave marker,
Simple iron crosses like this marked the graves of former patients of St Audry’s Hospital. They were buried in the hospital’s grounds . Patients may have spent most of their lives as inmates and then died in the institution. This is the century were grave marker marked in the hospital cemetery with a number, not their name. The hospital opened in 1765. It became the Suffolk County Lunatic Asylum in 1827. The hospital was also known as St Audry’s Hospital for Mental Diseases from 1917. The hospital and the Asylum Museum attached to it closed in the late 1980s.
So ,the grave marker in Asylum long time ago was not "name" ..it's "number"
It was said that Alice saw her tombstone written her own name .
Well, i don't want to make this part as a very " big issue" ,it's just very interesting to know that it was the "number" not the "name" that was written in every asylum patient.
In Alice own researched,, Alice found her grave and discovered that the date on her tombstone matched that of her admission to the asylum (she had stolen her file from their records). It is therefore possibly implied that she was "dead" to her family when they confined her there.
So it's really hard to know if the date of her death is a forgery or not because it was written that Alice died in 1920 and became a vampire in 1920. (pls.correct me if i'm wrong)
The question is here;
1.Did the "Old Vampire" already knew alice even before she was admitted in the asylum?
2.Do the "old vampire" has the power or the sense of tracking human with different kind of "power abilites?"like Eleazar,A former member of the Volturi. his ability to sense the gifts and potential gifts of others ..and this old vampire wants "alice" power???
3.or the old vampire is watching Alice all the time because he wants a mate for himself?

This is just my own thinking on why the Old vampire can't just develop a special feelings for Alice IF ever that Alice was died on the day of her admission in the asylum...to think Alice never stayed in the asylum for more that 24 hours...
and how about james?does the old vampire can read minds too?,and the reason why he sensed that james wanted Alice too?
or it's just a coincidence that james is on hunt inside the asylum and he smelled Alice very different
from others and decided to kill her by drinking her blood?
Or
James and the old vampires was an old rival..what the old Vamp wants .,james get!

Alice story is real amusing ,i just wish next time Stepehenie will write more about her past life...really intriguing!

I hope my sharing is little sensible for you Doc.
rosa.


Dear Rose Bella,

You raise so many wonderful questions. I wish that my brother the psychiatrist were here to help us. I am only a poor surgeon who has had an interest in psychology and psychiatry.

But: To me there are three different types of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorders) that might apply in Alice's case.

1. A "SHELL SHOCK," LIKE SYNDROME: The British did a study on "shell sock" (which is a near total mental collapse from the experience of being shelled by high explosives) They proved that every single human being will eventually have a mental breakdown if shelled long enough. The tortures that Diego had to endure (by Victoria) would have only been a fraction of what James put "The Older Vampire" through. If Alice watched (as James would have liked) she would have an element of "Shell Shock."
Title: "Shell Shock" Is exposure to an overwhelmingly terrifying experience.

2."Stockholm Syndrome" If you kidnap a person and "mentally and or physically torture him or her" they will tend to adopt the attitude of their tortures. (Examples: It only took Patty Hearst's captors only six week to convert her from a freedom loving "democrat" into a Marxist "Black Panther member, of the Symbyonese Liberation Army."

Title: After six weeks of torture and indoctrination Patty adopted the persona of the Marxist named Tanya.:

"The Soviets and Maoists perfected this techniques, and sent tens of millions of souls to "political re-orientation" camps.

3. Suppression of "Childhood Memories." As we discussed before: This is when an adult man or woman has "blacked out" memories from their child hood. And then remembers them in adulthood.


I don't know what is affecting Alice BUT I have a feeling that her memory loss is a result of parts of ALL THREE of the the primary causes listed above. I love Alice. But as a physician there is something that worries me about her. "SHE SEEMS TO BE TOO HAPPY, to me!"

Title: Manic actions (acting too happy) can be a camouflage for depression and anxiety:

Combined with her memory loss, Alice's "manic like actions" may well be her way of masking underlying anxiety and depression. Which may someday come out.

Title: Patty Hearst: After undergoing psychotherapy to undo the damage of her torture. With her dog, Tanya.

I have a theory as too why Alice's parents had her institutionalized. In the Saga we notice how Alice almost instantaneously gets along with Charlie. I think that that is because she was so close to her dad. So where did her mental visions come from. I think that they genetically came from her mother. And I think that she (Alice's mother) was also having periodic visions. And that she was subconsciously terrified that she was going insane. (aka: psychotic) So when Alice started having visions, her mother went ballistic and harped on her husband and Alice's physician until they consented to institutionalizing her. (All pure speculation of course) It is always a delight to share with you

Sincerely, Doc B
Title: Being Too happy "after being traumatized" can be a warning sign.

Permalink Reply by Georgia on November 8, 2010 at 4:57pm

That's a nice one!!

I think that what James said about "The Older Vampire" was that he was very fond of Alice. That means he cared about her and since we don't know how old exactly "The Older Vampire" was there's always a chance his love toward Alice was sort of paternal.

But, anyway, Alice has no memory of her life as a human in the acylum. According to James she was always in the dark. I think "The Older Vampire" worked at the acylum Alice's parents put her in so maybe he took care of Alice as much as he could. Maybe he was nice to her and tried to make her feel as comfortable as she could ever feel in an acylum. And maybe Alice was greatful for that and missing the love her parents failed to give her became attached to that vampire maybe even loved him.

If you spend your life in the dark, abandoned by those who were supposed to love you and care for you till you were able to do that for yourself you are bound to cling to those who would offer you the slightest bit of affection!