The Twilight Saga


Jacob:   “To See Him Or Not To See Him” That Is The “Eclipse” Question!

At the start of the Novel “Eclipse,” as Jacob leans back against his motor cycle,  he breaks the news to Bella that Edward has been lying to her. Edward's  “Wouldn’t it be nice for us to visit Renee in "Florida move" had been nothing more than a deceitful facade.

"Edward had lied to her, and had taken Bella out of town, rather than being honest with her. And in doing so, he had endangered the lives of everyone Bella loved. (Edward knew that Victoria was planning on coming to Forks durring the weekend and killing Bella. 

 

Bella was understandably, hurt at being betrayed by Edward. And she could not stop from crying over the way that she had been treated. As she wept, all of her classmates witnessed her humiliation. Bella finally turned and demanded that Edward stop lying to her

Finaly the school's principle ordered Jacob off of the  property, or threatened to call the police. Which caused Jacob to break into a mocking laugh at the thought of his strongest supporter, (in his winning Bella's love "Charlie") coming to arrest HIM! What a total Joke!!! Charlie had been trying to persuade Bella to "Love The One That Is Good For You (Jacob) For Months!!

Before Jacob left he told Bella that, if she ever decided to live in the real world with a "real man", La Push was only minutes away.

Edward’s argument that, there were inherent risks in being around young vampires was not with out merit.

B  But Bella really did miss, sharing with her “best friend’ Jacob

And Bella knew that her father strongly felt that she should be with a “positive” influence like Jacob, rather than Edward. (Who Charlie found barely tolerable)

And also, Charlie’s offer to release Bella from her punishment “of being grounded” (for going to save Edward's life) was “semi-conditional”  on her reuniting with Jacob.

D   Discussion questions.

1.   Should Bella have gone to see Jacob ?

2.  Do you think that Edward’s motives to prevent Bella's from being with Jacob, were driven more by his concerns for her physical safety, or because of his concerns that her visiting would only increase Bella and Jacob's love for one another? 

3.  Do you think that Charlie sincerely wanted Jacob for a son in law, or do you think that he mainly wanted to use Jacob to seperate Bella and Edward?  

4.  What do you think Charlie really felt about Edward in specific and the Cullen's in general?  

Counterpoints are questions that arise durring a debate, if there are any questions that you would like added to this discussion, just send them to me lol RB
1. If it had been up to you would you have found a way to cast the original actress who played Victoria, or the “more” experienced daughter of Ron Howard?
 

Sincerely,
Doc B

 

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Replies to This Discussion

1- Yes Bella should have gone to see Jacob. It would not have been nice of her to leave things the way they were. She was considerate of his feelings, she did not want to leave him broken hearted and alone. That would have been very bad. That would have shown that she did not care, but she did, she did care and so she wanted to see Jake, she wanted to make things right between them.


2- Edward is very mature and he would not play games about keeping Bella from Jacob because he is intimidated. Edward is the kind of person to allow Bella her free will in a situation like this. If she had to choose between them and she chose Jacob, Edward would have respectfully walk away but he would have left it up to her. He was not the kind of person to take advantage of a situation like that...but what I always wonder is why would he be afraid that Bella get hurt when after Jake tranformed they were sill close friends and nothing ever happened to her, why should something happen now? So i still think he was over reacting and he should not have made a decision like that for Bella. If she wanted to see Jake then she should have with her own free will.


3- I think more to seperate Edward and Bella but the thought of having Jake as a son in law was not a bad idea to him either because Billy (Jake's dad) and Charlie was best friends and he knew Jacob and saw a nice boy in him and a good influence for his daughter to be around.


4- Charlie likes the Cullens. He thinks they are very well mannered and respectable and he is irritated by the way some of the locals and the la push villagers think about them. I think what really brought Charlie to dislike Edward was the plot Edward and Bella put together to get Bella away from Forks (because James was hunting her in Twilight) Charlie felt that Edward did something so bad that Bella had to brake up with him and the situation was so bad that she did not want to even live in Forks anymore. That is where it started, then the whole leaving thing in NM. Charlie is not making effort to know the real Edward. He has his mind set on what he THINKS Edward did not Bella in Twilight and would not look past it or try to forgive but all in all he likes the Cullens.


Counter question: Eclipse is not out yet so no one really knows how good this other girl is as Victoria so most people might say Rachelle but I personally like Rachelle Lefevre. I thought she acted the role very well and I prefer her.


All just my opinions.
Dear Ms. T,
You make an excellent point. It was almost as if Bella had to see Jacob. It seemed to me almost as if the more she couldn't be with Jacob the more she wanted to be with him. (ps Doctor Lector would say "love the pictures.)

I agree entirely with you about Edward'

With his maturity and nobility. I don't think that he was as worried about Jacob as he was about Paul. Paul of course came within moments of killing Bella. I think that you are right Harry Clear Water and Billy were Charlie's dearest friends after Whalen was eaten.

HC to BS Q : " Don't worry about those Bears, Bella, I can use my powerful mo-jo on them". I also agree with you about Charlie's respect for the Cullen's. But it did take Angela (sweet girl) 2 weeks before she could sit comfortably next to Alice. But as you might expect Charlie fell in love with Alice.

I think that the old Victoria was a beautiful girl BUT to me she just seemed rougher and tougher than other girls. Which is EXACTLY why I think that she was so perfect.
But just maybe there was more to her not being alowed to play the part, than her being late to rehersal. As Yogie would say."How do she know."

http://www.thetwilightsaga.com/group/theofficialtwilightbookdiscuss...
Thank you for agreeing with me Doc.
Dear Tara,
You say, "Even if at the time she was in denial and didn't think she had any romantic feelings for him, she should have let Jacob be, so he could get over her and move on with his life.

WOW what an insightful point. I agree I think that she was in denial. But I think that consciously and subconsciously she knew that it would always be Edward. What if Edward was as much in love with Angelina as Bella was him. But he still had feelings for Bella ,"Would he have gone to see Bella knowing that all it could do was hurt Angelina, Bella, and even himself? I don't think so.Your advice about her just leaving him alone reminded me of a lecture about love, I heard years ago. The topic was "How long do you need to spend with someone who still loves you, to return him or her to the same degree of pain, that they had just weened themselves away from? The answer was just moments. His point was that if someone is not right for you the kindest thing is to simply go away. And never contact them. The most loving thing to do is to, make it: As if you had never existed. He felt that that was the kindest and most loving thing to do.

I think that you are entirely right about Edward. I think that he mostly driven by fear of Bella's potential for getting physicaly injured, by going to La Push. But that he also had a little jealousy as well. ED to RS "I a'm a man! I have humam feelingd." He was only vampire after all. But not long afyer his denialm he did let her go to the campfire. I just keep remember my professor saing: Just one phone call, can put the person you are separating from fight back into a "funk" Your theory that "he was angry at himself." Was right on. To me he proved that when he expressed his anguish over Jacob possibly being killed. He quite properly accepted the full responsibility for his actions. (Did Bella accept her's?)

3. You say" Charlie might say that Jacob was the son that he never had. I hadn't thought of that, but when you think of it what a perfect match, Charlie and Jacob would make.JB to BS "The thrill of the hunt!" Bella quotes a passage out of Wuthering heights. Edward shows that he is the perfect match for Bella not by asking the meaning of her quote. BUT BY CONTINUING WITH THE QUOTE WORD FOR WORD. Did either Charlie or Jacob have a copy of Wuthering Heights ? Heck no. At the most they might have have would be a TV guide or copy of a "Sports Illustrated" magazine between the two of them. When Bella turns on Edward's stereo he simply looks at her with a questioning look ( an "Are you disappointed that I love classical music look) And says De Buse', Bella doesn't skip a beat, she continues his statement for him "Clair de' lune, that's good!" And you just know that they are perfect for each other. Mr Banner says"You (Bella) were in advanced biology placement weren't you. Yes she says. Edward loves science "You know the square root of Pi " He says with astonishment (and Joy

Just as Edward passed the flat worms to Bella. Jacob could pass the worms to Charlie for a life time. But they would be big fat night crawlers to bait his hook with.
When God created Bella he pulled one of his magic tricks. He created this child who was so unlike either parent and so perfect for Edward. I hate to say this but I think that if Bella had married Jacob they would have had no chance of staying together. She would have gotten her beautiful two little boys. But La Push Baby." would have driven her crazy. "I LOVE BOOK STORES! SHE SAID!! MY COPY OF WUTHERING HEIGHTS HAS BEEN READ SO MANY TIMES, THAT ITS SPINE COULDN'T HOLD IT UP ANYMORE. There is an old psychological saying that says "It is men and women's differences that bring them together. BUT IT IS THEIR SIMILARITIES THAT KEEP THEM TOGETHER. My wife and I were playfully joking at lunch, She was insisting that the 50% of the DNA in Bella genome that was Nesse's, was what Jacob was really drawn to. Then Honey starts arguing that she should cancel a free trip to Barcelona (free if she gives a speech) because she feels she has left me alone too much.(her absence really is hard on Buttons and I) But I argue that I think that she should go. Even though I will miss her. Because I want her to experience as much of life as she can.(And that makes me smile to myself, thinking of Edward, because both of us are older than the women we love) Love, the willingness of each to sacrifice for the other, and common interests, the keys to a happy marriage. That's what you build a lifetime around..(There is no one who can get me to jabber on as you can. please forgive. "

When Bella is with Edward the conversation never ceases. "Is that it!! Edward says after a 3 hour session of Bella's wanting to lean every single thing about him. "My turn tomorrow to quiz you (all day) "Will that satisfy you? (Bella says) No, I will just be getting started. Bella eats her dinner with Charlie."We sat together and ate. He helped himself to a second helping of steak and potatoes. Neither of us said a word durring the entire meal. Bela isn't taciturn at all. She just never found a man who could keep up with her. If Bella ever asked Jacob if he had heard of De' Buse' he would say "Why of course, he was the older blond movie star that was in a motor cycle accident. The guy that threatened the first responders to "pull their endocrine glands out." Bella would just have kept rocking her little boy and said. "Just wondering. Are you and Charlie going fishing tomorrow? We are down to a five year supply of fish. (If every one takes second helpings for the next five years!")

No 4 I couldn' agree with you more.. Charlie was all supportive of the Cullens until Bella said "He's right out side. He's important!! Then all of a sudden that 12 gauged shotgun snapped shut with an extra special little snap. Thank you for sharing you insightful observations with us again, Doc http://www.thetwilightsaga.com/group/theofficialtwilightbookdiscuss...

Go see him. She knows him better than anyone, she knows he's not going to do her any harm. Plus she should just go because Edward told her not to Lol.
1. yes
2. I think Edward was acting out jealousy. In Midnight Sun he said he was often jealous of the guys who hung out with Bella. I highly doubt the reason was because of his concern for her safety; deep down he knew that Bella was just as safe with him as she was with Jacob and the pack.
3. I think the answer is both. He didn't like Edward and Jacob was like family to him. All He knew was that Jacob made Bella happy when ever Edward failed to do so.

4. I believe he thought the Cullens were great, excpecially Alice and Carlisle. I think Charlie's animosity towards Edward just came purely out of the fact that he emotionally destroyed Bella when he left.
Edward Cullen & Charlie Swan Pictures, Images and Photos

As for the Counter Question:
Rachelle Lefevre is exactly how I pictured Victoria in my mind while reading the series. She had the fierce feline features and wild-fire hair. I wasn't happy with the their new choice for Victoria because she looks simply too adorable. Personally, I wouldn't be threatened in the least bit by her.

Victoria Pictures, Images and Photos

Victoria Pictures, Images and Photos
1- Yes she should've gone to see him after all it is because of Jacob that she is still alive and he also filled that empty void that was left when Edward disappeared wiht his family. She at least owes him an explanation and to show him that their friendship is still intact, for now at least. 2- Edward is sure of himself and wouldn't never prevent Bella from seeing Jacob because of jealousy, his one concern was really her safety and he is for all concern mature. He would never hurt Bella's feelings that way, and also he is not overbearring either.3- I wondered when this question would come up. Charlie actually in my opinion was using Jacob to seperate Edward from Bella, but you know I think after he saw what his daughter went thru in NM is more of a protective father thing than anything else.I'm not saying it's right of him to do so but after all those months of seeing his daughter "like the walking dead" what father wouldn't become over protective or do anything to prevent it from happening again. Remember no man or boy is good enough for a fathers daughter.4- After what happen with James in phoenix he suspected that what happen to Bella was of because of Edward. And to make it worse in NM Edward leaves Bella and brakes her heart and he leaves her alone in the woods. So Charlie now does not trusts or likes Edward, and he thinks that Edward is bad for Bella so he dislikes him completely in Charlies mind he's seen two bad things happen to his daughter and he thinks is all becuase of Edward. The Cullens on the other hand Charlie likes and respects them especially Carlisle and Alice. Carlisle becuase of the help he's brought to the town of forks. Charlie doesn't blame the action of one person to the entire family thats not his character, he knows they are good people,except Edward who he now doesn't like at all. Counterpoint question- I think that Rachelle lefevre did a wonderful job on bringing the character Victoria to life on screen Iwould have cast her again, on ron howard's daughter i can comment because I never seen non of her work.
I see we agree completely with each other! As you most likely read my post above... we agree on everything!
1. I think she should. She couldn't just leave Jacob hanging there alone after what they had gone through and admittedly having feelings for one another. She had 'hurt' him much (according to Bella) and I don't think it is wise to leave him just like that, to let him heal by his own and go back to her happy place while Jacob is trying to cope with the sudden loss. Although meeting him is sort of 'unnoticely' giving him encouragement or hope to be able to win her heart, but as any kind person, Bella should reach out to him as how he had been with her.

2.I would say that it is a bit of both. Maybe more to 'prejudiced and jealousy' though:) In my opinion, at first, Edward might be jealous about Jacob being able to spend time with Bella and how she argued with him about this issue, and to see her anticipation and excitement in their meeting would have killed him, but he may have thought that having such thinking is selfish and wrong, so he might once again tried to come up with another reason in why he doesn't allow Bella to see Jacob (Werewolves are dangerous, which is in some sense quite true) ,sort of like an act of self-comforting.

3.Yeah, I think Charlie adores Jacob and is hoping he is really his future son in law. Unlike Edward, Charlie known Jacob since he was still an infant, literally, and to actually see him mature in many ways had nuture his confidence and acceptance in him. And now, to put Edward in this picture, he might appear picture perfect, but who knows that Edward might actually be dark and sinister inside? Charlie doesn't know Edward as how much he knows Jacob, although he liked the Cullens, but after the 'leaving' incident, how is that suppose to build Charlie's confidence in entrusting him (Edward) to take care his beloved one and only precious daughter?? I think he felt Jacob is better off with Bella because he knows him and trust him that he would be the perfect candidate to support Bella. So, I don't think he is just using him to separate Bella and Edward, but more to like having a future with Bella...

4. They are great citizens, very well civilized, but I don't think Edward is the best candidate to my Girl's boyfirend...(haha, I hope that answers the question)

Counterpoint Questions:

1. I had gotten used to the idea of Rachelle being Victoria, and to admit, I am quite dissapointed when they wanted to replace her with Bryce, but I had somehow talk myself into giving others a chance, and oh well, I'll just see how it plays out, maybe Bryce would be a better choice, maybe not, but for now, I would see them both as great Victorias...
1. Yes Bella should have gone to see Jocob. He needed her and i think she may have needed him too.
2. I think Edward was mostly worried about Bella's safety but he may have been a little jealous. After all Bella is his life and he cant live without her. It makes sense for him to be a little jealous even tho Bella chose him.
3. I think that Charlie woudn'd mind having Jacob for a son-in-law but he did want Bella to choose Jacob over Edward.
4. Specifically Charlie didnt like Edward because Edward hurt his daughter and because he's a dad so naturally he is a little upset with a handsome boy completely in love with his daughter.

Counterpoint Question:
1. Yes i think the original actor of Victoria should have been used if possible because she is in twilight and new moon so everyone has seen her and she is important in eclipse and it will be hard to see her as Victoria after being used to the other Victoria.
1) Should Bella have gone to see Jacob?
I'm a big believer in following your heart. Whether anything romantic developed between Jacob and Bella or not, she owed it to herself to go and see Jacob. Jacob keeps Bella sane in a way and beings her back down to earth. She smiles a lot with him and there's nothing wrong with that. Bella knows her own mind and although she does love Jacob i think she is always aware that Edward is her true destiny. What she see's in Jacob is a loving warm person who she would be able to imagine a life with closer to her 'pre knowledge of fictional creatures life'. She could have children with Jacob and be part of a family. But she gives up the prospect of children to become part of the Cullen family (even though she later has Renesmee, she had no idea this could be the case). So yes, you should always follow your heart. She acted correctly when Jacob kissed her and got a broken hand in the process. The story needed to progress this way, that kiss was a ling time coming lol!

2) Do you think that Edward’s motives to prevent Bella's from being with Jacob, were driven more by his concerns for her physical safety, or because of his concerns that her visiting would only increase Bella and Jacob's love for one another?
I do believe that Bella's safety os one of Edwards true concerns, but he's only human!!! oops, maybe not but you know what i mean. Nobody can blame him for being concerned about Jacobs and Bella's developing relationship. It must have driven him crazy, not only to see the developments he could see right before his very eyes, but he could also hear Jacob's thoughts (x-rated or not). It must have been more difficult for him still, not to be able to hear Bella's thoughts in return, to need that reassurance and for Bella to be the only person's thoughts he could not read. So i believe it was a bit of both. But i do think his concern for their developing relationship started to override the other. Jacob would have fought to the death to prevent any harm from happening to her. I think Edward revelled a little too much in Jacob's frustrations.

3. Do you think that Charlie sincerely wanted Jacob for a son in law, or do you think that he mainly wanted to use Jacob to seperate Bella and Edward?
I do believe Charlie would have liked Bella to marry Jacob and to have him for a son in law. Jacob's heart has always been in Forks. If Bella remained with Jacob, Charlie would have his Bella around for good. Also, Jacob is such a warm inviting person and Edward has always had to pay it quite cool (pardon the pun) due to the solitude he felt. Charlie was already deeply involved with Jacob's family and probably saw them as his family too in a way.

4. What do you think Charlie really felt about Edward in specific and the Cullen's in general?
I do think Charlie liked Edward but whenever he was around for too long, things always seemed to go pear shaped for Bella or Bella would disappear. Charlie loves Bella soooo much and does not want any harm to come to her. Weighing things up from a fathers point of view Jacob = safely returned, Edward = returned damaged or not returned at all!!!. I think deep down, Charlie has always known there was something strange about Edward and therefore doesn't ask too many questions when Renesmee arrives, but he also has a deep respect for Carlisle and the Cullens. Charlie defends the Cullens from derogitory remarks etc from Harry and others. I think Charlie eases up on Edward a little more or the idea of him and Bella should i say, particularly when he learns Jacob is a Werewolf. Poor Charlie, how do you pick an appropriate suitor for your daughter from the choices you have. Maybe in the end he would have preferred Mike Newton lol!!!

Thanks for reading, sorry my reply is long winded but i don't believe a short answer would have done your questions justice. Keep the discussion topics coming, i love thought provoking debate x

Dear Debbie, You make a powerful observation: You should always follow your heart. In another discussion we were talking about the fact that dating is the period specifically designed for you to learn about people that you might join for life. And engagement is the period that you are committed, but you still havent accepted total commitment. As Tara Vampara taught us in another discussion: Edward would have subconsciously (at least) wanted Bella to be with Jacob, so that she wouldn't have to go through eternity wondering if she made the right decision by being with him. You make a wonderful point in your "He's only human?" statement; I think that he even says that himself when Bella is quizzing him about if he finds her physically attractive. And I think you are right Charlie would love to have Jacob as a son in law. And hunting partner. And I think that you are right. It seems as if every time Edward is around "Too" much" Bella disappears. Thanks you for sharing your insightful observation. And for your compliment about the discussions. (That means a lot.)
About being long winded. We Roses have had an old motto "A friend cant ever say too much! lol RB

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