What Was Carlisle's Relationship With His Father Like. And What Significance Did The Cullen Cross Hold For Him?

Sincerely, Doc B

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 25, 2010 at 8:38am

As Carlisle's story shows; It is best to have both Mon and Dad pulling for you.
http://www.wimp.com/elephantrescued/

Permalink Reply by manuel castro on September 22, 2010 at 10:58pm

Carlisle's father being a pastor was probably strict with his son like most fathers of the time, but losing his wife didn't help much with raising a son not to mention that he chased or hunted vampires. He probably with the chasing and accusations of the innocent sometimes he didn't have to much time for him, also he was an intolerant person according to the book so their relationship wasn't that close. Carlisle grew as obedient son SM says in the book, that tells me that their relationship wasn't that warm but the man was still his father and Carlisle still respected him and loved him. The cross holds alot significance because Is something his father carved himself for their parish sort off to remember him and where he came from. It also lets him see that their is another way to exist that he doesn't have to be evil and kill the innocent, that theirs a choice like the one he made centuries ago.

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 24, 2010 at 6:40am

Dear Manuel,

As always you hit on many excellent points. Your point : "But the man was still his father and Carlisle still respected him and loved him." I think that you are surely right. For example: Edward was worried that he would let Carlisle and his family down if he killed Bella. But he never for a moment thought that Carlisle wouldn't forgive him. The fact that Carlisle and his (biologic) father were sometimes at odds doesn't mean that Carlisle didn't forgive him for his short comings and love him.

As Carlisle taught us one of our jobs is fully forgive all for their human failures. Just as each of us needs to be forgiven. Your point: "Because it (THe Cullen Cross) is something his father carved himself for their parish." I couldn't agree more. I think that the fact that he made it with his own hands helped Carlisle treasure it even more. And you make a very important point that I hadn't thought about, Carlisle's MOTHER HAD DIED.

That has to be an important key in understanding the relationship between the two. My guess is that Carlisle's mother (like him) was a very sensitive person. And her loss must have made his bond with his father, just that much more important.
As always thanks for sharing. Your friend Doc

Bear time Story:

The Decalogue* and respecting your parents.
The Decalogue is another name for the "Ten Commandments" One of those commandments is: "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may have a long life." As the psychologist Jung might say the commandment doesn't say that you need to love your parents. Because there are some parents that are almost imposable to love. But since you were created by them, honoring them allows you to honor yourself. If honoring your parents is a key to long life Carlisle would be an excellent example.

* Six of the ten commandments are included in the Egyptian book of the dead which predated the Decalogue. The commandments that were not included in the Egyptian Book, were in reference to respecting the sabbath and worshiping one God.

Permalink Reply by daisy on September 27, 2010 at 2:43pm

Hi Doc B Md,

We know that Carlisle has taken the morals he had with him into immortal life....these morals have to an extent been taught to him by his father's belief system. I think Carlisle is grateful for his upbringing even though his father was a strict man and I'm sure often difficult to live with.
The cross represents his human life and his human relationship with his father, he wants to keep that with him....I think!!?

Permalink Reply by Doc B MD on September 28, 2010 at 10:22am

Dear Daisy,

You make a VERY POWERFUL point. "MORALS!" Morals profoundly helped Carlisle turn into the fine man that he became. Morals (as you know) are simply a set of "rules" that we live by.* Let's look at an example of how our actions are affected by our morals. In the "Twilight Saga" Edward stops his car, and goes to get Bella's door. But Bella opens her own door, before he can open it for her. Edward is confused. What did Bella's action mean? Why wouldn't she allow him to demonstrate the respect that he has for her, by letting him open her door? (Edward lives by an antiquated social moral code.

(A code which Bella eventually comes to embrace) Edward had seen his biologic father open doors for ladies a thousand times. If Edward had asked him why he did that, his father would have said: "We do it because it is one of the ways that we show respect to women."

I am certain that Carlisle's father taught him to abide by a very rigid moral code. (A moral code, as you know, is simply a list of rules we live by) I don't think that Carlisle would have been able to overcome the temptations he faced, in his personal battle against his vampiric desires, with out that rigid moral code. Here is another example: Think about two different TV interviews (one of a typical 18 year old American, and the other of a typical 18 year old American soldier) you will invariably notice a significant difference.

The young soldier invariable shows respect to the interviewer. And that is because armies have learned that respect is a key to creating an an effective warrior. And after his transformation Carlisle was literally fighting for his soul.

Thank you for sharing with us. Your friend, Doc B
Bear-Time Story:

*All people live by a moral code. Example: In the Judeo-Christian faith there is a moral injunction against murder. Commandment: "Thou shall not kill"
Some people might say: "Well Marxist-Leninists live by no moral code." But that isn't true. As Lenin explained: "What is moral to the Marxist, is what ever is in the best interest of the communist party." If starving 16 million Ukrainians to death (as Stalin did) help the communist party, then it was the 'moral" thing to do. Stalin also said "Oaths are like eggs. They are made to be broken." And if we go to war, and it leads to only 100 humans left alive on earth, BUT THEY ARE Communist, then it would be a wonderful war." As Socrates would say: People who think that they are living by their own moral code are simply fooling themselfs, by borrowing the parts of the codes of others, that they like."

Permalink Reply by Doc B M.D. on October 20, 2010 at 10:27pm

Dear O-Negative,
"Sheep of different "sheep-folds" what a perfect scriptural reference. "Crumbs under your table," comes to mind, but it isn't anywhere near as good as yours.
As Jacob said, "How are we to protect the humans from Carlisle when he is more "human" than we are" (Paraphrased) As Bonhoeffer and "the great Beven" would say; "Maybe your God would damn Carlisle to hell, but I have the tinyest doubt that mine wouldn't.
Thanks for sharing. Doc

Permalink Reply by Georgia on November 8, 2010 at 5:05pm

I think it was one of those classic Father-son relationships where the father wants his son to be like him in every single way and the son wanting to please his father and win his approval does what he is told. Carlisle loved his father and as a result wanted to please him and make him feel proud of his son. But Carlisle was smart enough to know when and where to stop. He was smart enough to know when his father was being unreasonable. He saw that things in the world aren't black and white as his father thought.

I believe he kept the cross mostly to remember his father, but also to remind himself of what he was becoming because of his father and to remind himself how to be the person that he really is.

Permalink Reply by nycmaire on November 14, 2010 at 5:14pm

Ive had a thought running about in my head ever since I read and put in my 2 cents about this incredibly well thought out thread (thank you Doc B & all who responded.) and I am going to present it here if you don't mind:
Why did Carlisle "make" a "son" (Edward) before he made a female partner for himself?
Did Carlilse's relationship with his father play a role in Carlisle changing Edward first? Or maybe Edward was the first person who presented the opportunity to be changed..as Carlisle explains to Bella while he is stitching her up at her (botched)birthday party when he tells her that he is almost positive that Edward's mother knew what he was and to save her son from dying (by any means necessary...) and that's the reason Carlisle changed Edward?
Does any of this point to the possibility of Carlisle wanting a son of his own or is it just a co-incidence that Carlisle gained a son when he changed Edward? Also, why did Carlisle wait so long if he wanted a son ...unless he only did it as per the unspoken request of Edward's mother?

Looking forward to hearing what you think. I am sorry if I am restarting a topic someone else already covered and I am also sorry if my comment steps on Doc B's toes. Perhaps this should be it's own thread but I'm putting it here because it was this original topic that got me thinking about what I just wrote.